I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could to find a job during that time... for three months time we hardly had any food I guess because it wasn't easy to get on the program fast back then. Those that come out of a dire situation think everyone else can.
The ramifications of that happening to my dad will probably last multiple generations. He went from a loving father to a loathsome troll of a creature working nights in a oil refinery (I thought at the time) finally. From that my mom and dad divorced. My wife doesn't understand why I have severe dentals problems now in life, or other health issues that doctors told me are from stress. She doesn't understand why I stress so much about money and stay up at night.
I don't know why I'm saying all this the solution is simple but the problem is hard to acknowledge. The poor and destitute simply need help. We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. When we do finally give help it's so conditional and shamed that the hole of guilt someone fell in is practically inescapable.
I grew up in poverty as well and my reaction to money is the total opposite. I never felt connected to it all. I want to be a good saver, but my understanding of the green stuff is nearly nil. It's just sort of there and I try not to think about it.
I think it's just the opposite problem. I simply don't know what to spend money on. I feel like I spend a lot of money, but somehow everyone is in deeper debt than I am. I just don't want to have all those expensive things. I grew up living out of a duffel bag and lost everything I owned in that multiple times in my life. I just don't want anything.
Buying furniture for the first time was the most stressful thing I ever went through. When I bought my first bed, I just laid on a bed in the shop and just stayed there having a mental breakdown. I walked out nearly in tears and slept on my floor for a full week before I finally called and ordered the bed. It was $700 and felt like I took a nose dive off a cliff.
The biggest effect is my appetite. No one understands why I'm so underweight. If you ever go a week without eating, believe me, your desire to eat food goes out the window. Those first bites of food makes you incredibly ill. I eat everyday now, but three meals is overkill.
During my childhood, my father's most of the income went into repaying loans. Luckily, we had our own house, so we didn't need to worry about getting homeless. But I remember I rarely got to spend money on any kind of "luxury". By luxury, I mean simple stuff like a icecream cone or a baloon.
The effect it had on me is quite wierd. On one hand, I always wish to earn more so as to not have to go through that phase again, while on the other hand, I never care about spending money. Even now that we have more money, I rarely spend on clothes, fancy food, gadgets or whatever that is not necessity. That phase of borderline poverty has made me frugal for life.
Yeah, I totally get this. I have no idea why people want stuff. I have one computer, one phone, one guitar, and so on. If I could own just one set of clothing, I'd be happy with that.
It isn't frugality for me, it's just that I can't stand clutter and really, what I consider. I think I missed whatever the definition of having things means.
I guess it depends on you knowing what you want. I wouldn't drop money on a spanking new car even though I can afford to and all my peers drive Audis or whatever, but I feel just OK with my over 100k Civic just because I like not having a loan on my head. I didn't get the latest iPhone (still on the 5s) because a beautiful new phone means nothing to me; I'm just fine with a less expensive, smaller and slower model.
OTOH, If I see nice clothes or shoes I definitely do consider getting them if I don't have something similar already, or different enough from existing clothes to give a different look. I won't say no to a road trip, or a weekend trip with my gf/friends. Or to eating at a fancy restaurant occasionally.
:) and, to some extent, this is kind of funny, because where I live having a Civic is a sign that you do have a expensive car, and people treat it like "just more 10k bucks and you could be in an Audi".
Do you live somewhere where a car is not necessary/totally unaffordable? I think the OP is probably living in the US, and navigating most areas is almost impossible without a car. Wonder what the alternative to a cheap civic is other than no car :)
In my city there's a fair public transport, but in the country as a whole, no. Even bigger cities lack good transportation.
But cars are expansive, specially considering the average income, and having a Civic or a Corolla puts you in the top, with Audis being the "I'll never afford to have one of those".
Hah, I will not deny that it's probably very cost efficient, but 7k is only a cheap car relative to a new car. A cheap early 2000's late 1990's civic that runs is somewhere around 5 times less than that.
Yeah but this car was three years old and was certified pre-owned, with low mileage. You're suggesting one that is pushing two decades of service. We looked at those kind of cars too and it was obviously a worse choice unless you love rust and frequent repairs.
I'm not suggesting either. I drive a car from 2001 that has spent most of its life in the US north-east. Rust can be an issue but you would be surprised how many cars don't have major rust problems. However, if I had an option of getting a more expensive car (7k was out of my budget) when I was looking for one, I would have gone with something more like what you mentioned. I'm just throwing out the idea that 7k isn't necessarily in the same price range as an old civic. It's definitely rolling the dice with an old car but I have only had to pay for one battery and one alternator (notice I said pay for... in all actuality I received a free battery and had to have an extra alternator replaced as the shop I went to was garbage but owned up to it).
Yeah, the competitors were about the same price but in sorry shape.
Anyway, the prices kind of scale together. If you bought a twenty-year-old Spark/Matiz it would be cheaper than the comparable Civic. Also, I don't know where the OP lives, but the US has pretty lax regulations that let people drive around old cars for longer than many countries.
> I wouldn't drop money on a spanking new car even though I can afford to and all my peers drive Audis or whatever, but I feel just OK with my over 100k Civic just because I like not having a loan on my head.
Needing a loan ≠ can afford to. Many people do not understand this simple fact.
I’m not entirely sure, maybe I will do that someday, but I’m certainly not comfortable with the idea. And I find it interesting how normal that is and how people don’t seem to think it’s a big deal.
I can afford to buy a car outright, but why would I? Most new cars have terms of zero interest for several years. If I can invest my money elsewhere while taking advantage of a zero-percent loan, why wouldn't I?
At some point you own enough things that they own you. You can't do anything without taking all that stuff into consideration. This can make for a difficult situation if you and your partner don't agree.
My ideal living situation is an empty house; my wife feels most comfortable surrounded by things.
Maybe you're just conditioned to not want things from your childhood. I remember wanting to have nice sneakers in school because all the other kids had nice sneakers and they'd make fun of you if you don't. I'd spend time in footlocker just looking at the stuff they had or sift through my eastbay catalogs but never buy anything. I wasn't happy that we couldn't afford them but after seeing that we had to take out loans and borrow money just to make ends meet, my desire for sneakers quickly dissipated. Even to this day when I can afford nicer sneakers I don't really want them anymore...or anything else for that matter. I feel like I've completely inhibited desires for most things, except whenever I experience quality that matters, I see the point of spending money, but it's hard to know what they are until you experience them. For example, a nice mattress is a hugely valuable investment and quality actually matters, but I never felt the difference until I crashed at my friend's house and slept in his bed. I'm curious what are some things where a more expensive version of the same thing is actually 10x better than the cheap version?
This is what happened to me. At some point, I realised that asking for something puts more pressure on my already stressed parents. I actually regretted having demanded few things. At first I forcibly stopped myself from wanting to have things, and eventually the desire simply vanished.
If you walk a lot, good sneakers make a huge difference. My knees are... well, but ideal, but much better, since I got better sneakers that cost more money.
I am the sort of person who seldom cares about clothes & fashion. The only fashion I cared about is cargo pants. Cargos because they have a high utility value. Many pockets, which help me carry a lotta stuff around. I always carry a pocket diary & pen so that whenever some idea strikes me, I immidietely jot it down. Of late, I've started buying denim shirts & Woodland shoes coz I work in an IT company, and it's about time I start presenting myself well.
When I walk in a shop, I just see many things that I do not need. Other people worry that they won't get enough vacation by ocean, the latest car model, or the most fashionable clothes... I just laugh at such suggestions. I have a roof above my head, as much food as I need, a computer and a fast internet connection -- what else would I really need?
On the other hand, for a long time in my life, when I saved some money, I had absolutely no idea what to do with it. That was a kind of a problem no one around me had during my childhood. I wish I had found websites like "early retirement extreme" a few decades ago, because I was the kind of person who could quite simply achieve it. (Instead I lost the extra money taking bad investment advice from various "financial advisors".) Other people seem to have an irresistible urge to increase their expenses when their income increases; I don't feel this urge.
Someone else could've said that having a roof over one's head, a computer and a fast internet connection are laughable suggestions - why would you care about them, when you can spend money on traveling around the world and the internet connection is usually all over the places for free?
I actually worry about not having enough vacation, because experiencing other people's cultures and mindsets are the most important things to me. What else would I really need?
To each his own. Some people care about looking good or commuting comfortably. Most people exaggerate these costs - that's another matter.
>I actually worry about not having enough vacation, because experiencing other people's cultures and mindsets are the most important things to me. What else would I really need?
Ah yes, the infamous two weeks where for a huge GHG release, we can experience other cultures and come back home changed.
I'm actually from Poland where I've negotiated at least 6 weeks of paid vacation. When combined with some national holidays I usually end up with 2 months a year of paid vacations. Not counting weekends.
I know my priorities and I've optimized my work/life balance for them.
Man, this is infuriating. Had this been happening in a welfare state such as in most European countries, your family would have kept a roof above their head thanks to proper public housing, and your parents would have received enough money to serve their kids 3 meals a days. Not saying that's living the life, but people in the US just don't understand that stories like yours do NOT have to happen.
I find that a little historical perspective opens me up to the fact that things were different not too long ago, and the current situation is the result of concrete political actions in the not-too-distant past, which implies that concrete political actions in the present could also change the course of things.
The Community Health Act of 1963 was supposed to transfer mentally-ill patients from psychiatric hospitals to community-based centers, but "only half of the proposed centers were ever built; none were fully funded, and the act didn’t provide money to operate them long-term."
During the 80s "HUD's budget authority was reduced from $74 billion to $19 billion. Such alleged changes is claimed to have resulted in an inadequate supply of affordable housing to meet the growing demand of low-income populations. In 1970 there were 300,000 more low-cost rental units (6.5 million) than low-income renter households (6.2 million). By 1985, the advocacy group claimed that the number of low-cost units had fallen to 5.6 million, and the number of low-income renter households had grown to 8.9 million, a disparity of 3.3 million units."
I buy things that become more valuable over time. Investing has become a fun way for me to "spend" that cash I otherwise hoard. Spending money on anything else is very difficult for me.
I spend most of my money on books. I rarely ever spend money on anything else. Living as a kid with my grandma had a huge impact on things I did in my later years. We were poor but always had access to books.
I did that until I felt like I had collected enough books to last me a lifetime. Once in a while I'll still order one that has good information on a topic I am passionate about. I have eclectic tastes and libraries usually don't have the information I need (outside of a particular one in Santa Fe, far from where I live).
One problem for me, living in Denmark, is that all the books at the library are in Danish. I prefer to read books in their original language, or at least in an English or German translation, which are usually markedly superior to the Danish translations.
If I want a book in English, I either have to special order it at the library and wait for a week to get it, or I have to buy it myself.
I identify with this so much. I grew up a single child to a single mom. She did her best but there was never any "saving". She didn't have a savings account, she had nothing. So now that I'm older my first priority is saving money, which is why I'm in less debt in comparison to my peers I think. I spend a lot, but I do it in intervals, and my goal is to eventually learn how to invest. I think most people my age take to the importance of investing too much, and abstract away the savings because they think they will be investing in the future.
I don't think about money at all either. I realize it's important, but it's importance has never consumed me. If I don't think about it, I actually spend less. If I think about it, I totally panic. I've saved money by not thinking about it.
I also have trouble eating! I just buy a week's worth of food at a time, twice a month, so typically I have only two week's worth of food per month, and that results in about 2 meals per day-- small ones. Sometimes I don't eat at all because of my appetite issues. I just take multivitamins to supplement those days, as well as extra Vitamin D3 and Magnesium.
The GP said that he has severe emotional problems, related to childhood trauma around spending money and also broke down when buying the bed.
Why are you criticizing his choice of bed? You are showing a lack of empathy to the poster's actual point, which isn't "Help me find a cheap bed". It feels like you're just looking for an opportunity to brag about how good at buying beds you are. Even if you're not, your response doesn't say anything about the article or add to the wider discussion in any way.
I can relate to both mindsets. I stay more frugal despite not needing to, so $700 is a lot to me. But the vitriol of saying "thou shall" is what I dislike. The psychological trauma of fearing the spending of any money is real ... but I'd rather have a dose of it rather than none at all.
Make friends with a hotel manager and have them order you a set of the tempur sealy or Simmons foundation (box spring) and mattress specific for hotels. It’s only $500 total (~$250 each), and come with a 10 year warranty (for the hotel). Don’t even need to flip or rotate them.
Thank you for sharing your story. I feel so much empathy towards you and your family, and I'm sorry to hear about your father feeling so bitter towards the system afterwards. I don't blame him.
When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love. I see people that need to be taken in, not just for a night, but for a year or longer... so they can stop stressing about where they'll get their next meal, or if they'll have someplace warm and safe to sleep at night.
It is so easy for people to judge them.. say that it is their fault for being down on their luck. When you're homeless, you just get used to people assuming the worse... heck you even start to assume the worse about yourself. You say, why is it that no one cares to see that I'm hurting inside. People judge them for not taking whatever work is available for the day, because they assume... hey, one day helps, right... well when you're homeless, the help of one person is kind and does help for a bit, but what what people need in America are communities helping them.
Unfortunately, you will likely have to go to religious services and pretend to care about religion enough to get the help you need, because that is who America has designated as their community support system.
> When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love
If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution. Unfortunately the overall national trend has been funding cuts, with the irony being that it doesn't save money overall; since the costs are just shifted over to hospitals and other emergency services.
This isn't a new subject. For those without severe mental issues, the end result is the same when we provide housing: it costs less
> If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution
The statement that they should probably need to be cared for in a mental institution isn't true. That some or several may need to be cared for is true, yes, but the probability of that need is less well know. Schizophrenia and other schizophrenia-related disorders can often 'mellow out' on their own over time. [1] It is important to give someone a stable and loving and validating environment for them to be able to recover. There are several kinds of people who, while they talk to themselves, really just have their symptoms exacerbated by stress (e.g. schizotypal personality disorder can have quasi-psychotic symptoms triggered by stress).
To be clear, we're discussing homeless people with mental issues, and not people who aren't homeless. The homeless have less access to resources than a non-homeless person with family and friends.
> It is important to give someone a stable and loving and validating environment for them to be able to recover. There are several kinds of people who, while they talk to themselves, really just have their symptoms exacerbated by stress
Yes, which is why a mental institution is a good starting point for a homeless person with mental issues. Let's not confuse these institutions with the mental asylums of the past. Are there better alternatives for the mentally ill homeless that I'm not aware of? I don't feel that most if not all homeless shelters are equiped to fully deal with individuals suffering from schizophrenia.
Yes, there are. The only real difference between a mentally ill homeless person and a normal mentally ill person is the home. Why wouldn't a stable home be the answer?
A short-term stay in a mental hospital might be necessary while getting the patient adjusted to their medication. But once someone is stable, there is no need for such things. Even though the institutions have changed, they are still pretty horrible places to stay in, with all sorts of lifestyle restrictions that aren't generally needed.
A small apartment is appropriate for most folks once they are stable, along with access to someone to call. Some communities have social workers that visit once or twice a week and help with grocery shopping, bill paying, and general "how are you" sorts of things. Group homes are another option if someone chooses it: Private space with shared kitchen and whatnot, staffed with someone to help with cooking and cleaning. My ex, diagnosed with schizophrenia, would have been a candidate for such a thing. I was his primary caregiver, fair or not, and his doctor didn't want him living alone for his own protection.
Give support for family members as well - this is something seriously lacking in the US system. He had help, I didn't.
A small amount of folks might need some help for substance abuse, but many short-term mental health facilities are equipped to do this. A fair amount of folks would be helped by police that are capable of helping mentally ill folks with training and a marker on their ID so the cops know what to change in their approach.
You have some of the best ideas. I would love to get more involved in helping with programs like these. Substance abuse can be the most challenging to approach. From my experience, some people are on a self-destructive path and they forget how to take care of themselves. Some drugs are almost zombifying in that they are begin to only think about their next fix.
I would like to see more options here for medicine and research. Truly, recovery can be a long process for many and it takes time for the brain and body to heal from trauma. Some of that may be emotional trauma as well. I would love to see more options for preventive mental health services in the United States.
If you are in the US, contact the National institute for mental health. You might be able to contact your local hospital as well - that's where I ran into the social care. My ex had a person visit him for a while after we split up and I had a friend that was employed by a different hospital in the area. If anything, they might tell you where to go to get involved, depending on how much time and money you have to spare. If you are high on the time and/or money and are willing to use some of it for good use, you might be able to organize a volunteer program that works with different agencies. Even if it is just a program that makes wellness visits with or without small care packages would help some folks greatly, if they are up to that sort of thing.
What is available for drug users, I'm not sure. It seems one of the major problems in the states is that substance abuse help is difficult. Some charities help folks by donating things like hygiene items and things like that. As you said, some folks nearly forget how to take care of themselves, having fallen out of the habit for such a long time. The same can happen with some mentally ill folks.
Most importantly, though, these programs need funding. Some of these things nearly need laws to happen (like police training). Having worker protection laws that allow folks to take care of themselves would help. One of the better ways to do this is by contacting your state and local government.
> The only real difference between a mentally ill homeless person and a normal mentally ill person is the home. Why wouldn't a stable home be the answer?
if the mental illness is as serious as schizophrenia, a home isn't enough. The issue isn't just about the mentally ill person's welfare, but also if that person poses a danger to others who live nearby. There is a strong correlation between schizophrenia and violent crime. Without treatment in a controlled environment like a mental hospital, it's hard to see a mentally ill homeless person being able to safely integrate with society when they also lack a family and friends support network.
> I was his primary caregiver, fair or not, and his doctor didn't want him living alone for his own protection.
This is the issue. The homeless will not have the luxury of having a caregiver to be able to live independently at least initially. I'm sure why it's so hard for people to accept that the homeless people, who also have mental issues, just don't have access to the same resources that a non-homeless person with mental issues has access to.
A mental institution is not always a good starting point, especially if they are committed involuntarily. It can actually make things worse as the experience of being committed involuntarily is often traumatic to the individual. Inpatient treatment is not always loving or validating, especially in environments where the inpatient treatment is for poor or homeless individuals. Homeless shelters aren’t always equipped for individuals suffering from schizophrenia, but homeless shelters are not really the loving and validating spaces someone who is mentally ill may need anyways. I know there are apparently programs that House the mentally ill in small apartments or with willing caretaker families That are paid for it.
I’m not saying “you are wrong and I have the answers”, merely that thmakes perception that anyone who talks to themselves needs inpatient and medication may not be necessarily true. They could just need some time in a safe place, while inpatient treatment can actually not be safe and incredibly traumatic.
Yes those people probably have homes, jobs, and a family and friends support network. With the homeless, they are missing more than one of those things, if not all of them. Is it even possible to have a prescription when you don't have a mailing address?
Not really in actual, regular, uninterrupted practice. There are so many problems with the US healthcare system at every level of it when you have excellent health insurance, especially in terms of regular maintenence medication for something as garden variety as asthma, that when you get down to the level of real emergency help absolutely medically required, it is usually a severely delayed and often interrupted swampy mess. I've been at both ends of this spectrum of care. Both are unreliable, but obviously, it is far worse-- a nightmare of indifference really, at the bottom. And many meds (like inhalers even) require ridiculously expensive, regular tests. The homeless and impoverished are often given less effective medication or ineffective medication to treat serious ongoing conditions.
You'd need to pay the doctor, and for prescribed drugs. Some doctors treat indigent patients at reduced prices, or pro bono. Also, food and drug chains often sell generics at discounted prices. And some US states prvide drug-discount services.
I guess the institution should be a transitory step in a social reintroduction process, not an asylum where to lock them away. (hopefully a system that does not chronicize them to assure funding streams.)
Those living on the streets with severe mental issues probably don’t want to be in a mental institution. And unless they’re a danger to themselves or others (and not just in the sense of making bad life decisions), they can’t be held against their will. This is a free country.
That’s not what I’m saying. We most definitely should offer mental care to people who need it, regardless of ability to pay. My point is simply that many of them don’t want it, and we can’t force it on them.
What is a more important duty to our neighbors? To lock up and force drugs on homeless people who have no one to talk to but themselves; or preventing them from becoming homeless in the first place?
> And unless they’re a danger to themselves or others (and
> not just in the sense of making bad life decisions), they
> can’t be held against their will.
Technically if somebody suffers from a mental illness, including addiction, they could be forced off the street. In fact, refusing housing and other assistance to live in patently unsanitary conditions could, perse, be construed as evidence of incapacity.
We just choose not to. AFAIU, the Supreme Court decisions in the 1970s that, arguably, precipitated the dismantling of the archaic mental health institutions never even came close to suggesting that such people couldn't be forced off the street. For example, in the famous case of O'Connor v. Donaldson the patient, Donaldson, had actually been living in an apartment of his own in Philadelphia. He traveled to Florida to visit his parents, and it was his parents who had him committed after he shared paranoid delusions about his neighbors in Philadelphia. I've seen people use that case to argue against forcing people off the streets as-if we had no legal choice, but it's just plain wrong. Donaldson wasn't living on the streets; his ramblings notwithstanding he was clearly capable of taking care of himself, and in any event the case was never about his initial confinement but his continued confinement 15 years later.
We choose to let people live on the streets because we've somehow internalized the perverse logic that to do otherwise would result in a tyrannic state oppressing the mentally ill. (Myths about SCOTUS opinions come into being to bolster the logic.) That such an approach happens to require little or no budget outlays while simultaneously absolving us from moral blame is, I'm sure, merely coincidental....
Some, maybe. Others live perfectly happily without being alone in their heads. I know a story or two about people for whom just talking with the voices was the way they found themselves again. Sure there are people who can't deal with another constant presence or who have deeper issues to work out, but saying that everyone who's part of a plural system needs institutional help is part of the feedback loop that makes them reject their headmates and so need institutional help finding solitude. The key is finding a way to a stable life, not finding a way to a single life.
> Unfortunately, you will likely have to go to religious services and pretend to care about religion enough to get the help you need, because that is who America has designated as their community support system.
Ouch, that's kind of an uncalled for jab at religion.
Why don't atheists band together and form communities to show the religious how it's done...?
Many non-religious groups do exist, but depending on where you live they are not the norm. I am happy to try to start my own non-profit, but I also realize that I have to be careful of what time I commit personally right now until I can find more ways to give back.
> because that is who America has designated as their community support system.
This seems unjustified. Your statement assumes (a) Support systems in the community are run only by religious people. This implies (b) Non-religious people do not run any community programs.
Assuming (b) is true (which it may very well not be), the question that needs to be asked is, why do non-religious people and institutions not run more community programs.
Not rail against the religious people who do.
This explains it. You probably live somewhere with a reasonable social safety net. Our government safety net is full of holes, and religious people build webs to catch people who fall through.
Not all of them are bad. Some of them will just help people and not make it conditional on joining their religion. In my experience and from accounts by other LGBTQ+ people, these are the outliers.
We have a little in common, though the events of my own life occurred a little differently.
We moved to a small rural town when I was young out of fears that my father’s work for an oil company’s union (refinery construction and maintenance) would place him out of jurisdiction where we were.
He is and was a very talented fitter/welder and has even taught courses in college. He did however spend most of the best years of his life after his athletic career with some ugly-souled people who seemed to have it out for mankind in general. Somehow he endured decades of that to look after us. I wish he could have been more enlightened to the world as it would have helped my siblings and I out when we were young. Ultimately we were on our own financially and otherwise even though my parents offered whatever support they could.
I’ve spent time living on $5 a week for food. Some flour, sugar, water, butter, salt, baking soda, and on good weeks milk, can go a long way if you need them too. I forget how many times I had to live on homemade soda bread for weeks at a time, but it wasn’t fun—maybe that’s why I can’t remember it too well.
Im doing so much better than a lot of people who have never had a chance. I’m lucky I was a little bright. I’ve also been to school and worked alongside people who have no idea what it is to have no such luck, money, or otherwise—it’s enlightening and sometimes disheartening to speak to people in those positions about that.
I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said. I think if most people took a moment to imagine how bad their own life could be, and compound that by a few orders of magnitude, you might get close to just how it feels to be in such a position and how hard it is to ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps’— so to speak. Your points on dignity are a topic too large to address in this forum. But you’re right.
The hardest argument that I hate about the article in question. I will never stop living like tomorrow I could lose everything. I will forever keep some cash stashed a way. I will always keep canned chili in the cupboard. Every thunderstorm or inclement weather event I fill the bathtub up. Some may say "oh that's good that you do that" but to my wife it's border line paranoia.
I've read a bunch of personal finance books and I found that they recommend 3-6 months of expenses in savings as an "emergency fund." Of course, they usually mean in a bank, I don't know how literally you mean "cash." But if you have less than 3 months worth of expenses stashed, you're living somewhat precariously. The general population is absolutely terrible with money, so I would recommend taking random peoples' opinion on savings with a grain of salt. This is the internet, so take mine with a grain of salt too. It's worth doing your own research from experts.
I don't know how much canned chili you keep, but FEMA recommends keeping at least a 3 day supply of non-perishable food on hand. I don't think FEMA has a reputation for having borderline paranoia.
> I don't think FEMA has a reputation for having borderline paranoia.
If anything, FEMA tends to grossly underestimate the impact of the incidents they may respond to; the public tends to grossly overestimate FEMA's capacity and interests in doing what is ultimately, for every animal and man since the dawn of time, their own job and no one else's.
> doing what is ultimately, for every animal and man since the dawn of time, their own job and no one else's.
I think that's a bit harsh. Civilization gives us infrastructure to live safely in very densely populated areas. When that infrastructure fails it doesn't seem fair to just say: "Now it's up to you like it was up to your ancestors. It doesn't matter that they didn't live in a spot where they had 100k other homo sapience specimens within half an hour walk, now competing for resources that stopped flowing in."
It's so insanely densely populated that even leaving this place in a car could take you days.
> I think that's a bit harsh. Civilization gives us infrastructure to live safely in very densely populated areas.
Civilization allowing you to live without regular incidents is different from it allowing you to live safely. The marks of civilization (namely density) become liabilities when things go very wrong. In many ways, it's up to you in ways your ancestors never had to deal with: more things in civilization burn, crush, lacerate, and impale people when they fail than in nature, and nature had plenty of these to begin with.
A sense of safety built on the responsibilities of others is false, I think. Ideally we all do our jobs when the going gets tough, but in reality, you're surrounded by cowards who would rather watch you and yours die than put themselves in danger (see the recent mass shooting, where four deputies basically just stood outside for the duration of the attack), and in some sense, who could blame them?
I grew up in poverty in the US as well, and I agree there’s a heartless tendency for people not to acknowledge it’s real. The tired comment I see most frequently is something like “nobody in the US is poor because everyone has plumbing, refrigerators, and TVs.” First, no, everyone does not. Many people are homeless. Second, it’s very narrow to focus on objective material factors, because that discounts the toll of the nightmarish stress the poor live with constantly, even the ones who have an apartment and a television.
I spent three months in S. Barbara. I hated it for this reason. All I could see were the homeless, ignored. Once, a homeless person's wheelchair tripped on a curb and he fell off into the street. People literally walked over him until I picked him up and back into his chair.
I'd lived in Atlanta for several years before but the attitude of the well do to the poor was obscene.
When I left, I vowed I would never live in coastal California again.
Agreed--this was a huge source of philosophical dissonance for me when I lived there. The issue is just as persistent in the East Bay (specifically, Oakland/Berkeley) and is worse, IMO, because Berkeley espouses a progressive/compassionate/environmentally+socially friendly image, to which it does not adhere in practice.
My childhood was one of extreme poverty. We were never homeless. But my dad worked so much we never saw him. And the toll it took on him was such that my brother and I were basically terrified of him even into our early adulthood. He was brutal, mean, always angry. Our mother died when I was 10 and he abandoned us with our grandparents. I don’t blame him anymore. He had a breakdown. The world finally destroyed him. But life with our grandparents was better. They were kind and in their own harsh way taught us we had to be tough and make better decisions. It didn’t stick with my brother. He’s been borderline psychotic ever since mom died. I think it destroyed him, too. But even now at 30 I count every penny. Every expense is important. Even going on a date with my wife, I’m afraid the whole time. What if...what if..it’s nearly constant. All that to say I think I understand how you feel. And I agree, those who haven’t and don’t have to live like we did just can’t understand it. That’s not a value judgement. It’s just human nature.
Almost the same happened with my father. It's why I think poverty can span generations easily. I am grateful now my mom and dad got a divorce but during that dark time I only saw my dad if either myself or my brother were in trouble or if we happened to be running around the trailer late at night.
American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty.
I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills.
Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived the great famine which killed millions. It scarred them for life, but also pushed them to make more money and live frugally even after achieving financial security.
By the time you are born it's already getting better. Yes it's dirt poor compared to now but is already on the trend of improving. So the stress level would be very different than the "suddenly become poor" people.
Another point is back in those days the majority of population are poor, which means the social structure are build around poor people. Food, cloths, education, haircut, all of them targeted poor people. You don't need to live in the corner of the city and go great length to find products suited for you.
I can relate to this. I grew up in India when India was a closed economy, with anything (commodities or services) either too expensive or limited by license raj. My father, being a lowly government official, did have a steady but meagre income. Groceries and mortgage were always on his mind. But, he also had his habit of never borrowing, in spite of dire need. Never kept a credit card either (to this day). I have learnt that brand of frugality from him.
"Chinese poverty is different from American poverty because we weren't worried about starving."
Mentions a mass starvation event in China only a generation before which probably killed the equivalent of 10% of the US population at the time.
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me? Because yes, I'm aware of that. That is why I am so confused by OP seeming to say "in China we don't have to worry about starvation even when we're poor".
It's just so far from true I don't understand why they are getting upvoted (and me downvoted).
My take would be that they weren't starving because they were poor, they were starving because there was no food to be had. Starvation in a famine is different from starvation in a land of plenty where you simply can't afford food.
At the time the poster was growing up, starvation wasn't a concern. My wife grew up around the same time, she was born in 1975. There had been a famine a generation before, but that wasn't an issue she had to worry about. What happened a generation before does not invalidate that reported experience and isn't relevant to it.
Even now, people in China are not concerned with or at risk of famine. It doesn't matter how many famines there were 50+ years ago, it won't make that untrue unless you can point to a credible reason why Chinese people today should fear famine.
That's the true sign of a communist regime: after the revolution stagnates, the communist pary elites start to take personal control over the state-controlled industries while keeping the populace under theit heel.
I'm from the UK and I'm currently travelling the world for a few months. I have been shocked by how different American attitudes to poverty are to European ones. We may not be very good at actually helping people in poverty, but most people accept that poor people are in need of help.
America was founded by people who fled Europe because they didn't fit in there. I have raised two special needs kids. If you have problems other people don't really understand, it is not uncommon for people to try to help you in ways that are incredibly counterproductive. This is why "Please stop helping me!" is (or was) a TV Tropes page.
America has a political tradition of Don't tread on me. This influences our policies and attitudes regarding a great many things, sometimes in ways that are not positive.
I'm a woman who was one of the top high school students of my entire state and I failed to get the two career couple upper class outcome I expected. I spent my twenties reading boatloads of stuff trying to figure out what went wrong.
I concluded that European women asked society to help them carry the burden of being the one who carries a child to term. American women took the Don't tread on me position and basically told men to fuck off and get the fuck out of my way. The European approach has a much better track record of closing the wage gap and raising quality of life for both women and children.
On the other hand, I spent nearly 6 years homeless in order to get healthier when doctors say it cannot be done, so I am pretty Don't tread on me to good effect. So I don't actually think America is simply dysfunctional and needs to give up its silly ways. But we certainly have room for improvement on quite a lot of metrics.
I agree. Was in SF recently and the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and homelessness makes me extremely uncomfortable. I know we have homelessness in the UK but this is just a whole different scale in the US
Oh my, this is what I was saying elsewhere in this thread. San Francisco is probably the most shocking place I've been to in my life. So much poverty and yet so much money. YC should do a push to do something with that with its next start up. But I'm guessing people in SF just got used to the poverty around them at this point and probably think it's normal.
Have you never been to London? There are homeless literally everywhere, and London is one of the wealthiest cities in the world. The money in London is much, much older as well, so if anyone should have it "sorted" it should be London.
There were 1,137 homeless reported in London [0], a city with a population of 8.8 million. SF has 7,499 [1] for a city of 870k. There are actually more homeless in SF than all of England.
> Have you never been to London? There are homeless literally everywhere
I live in London currently. There are almost no homeless people. What are you talking about? It's one of the largest city I've been to where I've seen the least amount of poverty.
I'll also say that London is super safe, you'll almost never see crazy people in the streets or public transport. I regularly take the bus or the subway at late hours and I've never seen anyone dangerous or looking for trouble.
You are right, there are homeless in London of course, as I said in my original comment. I had the impression it was a lot worse in SF. I don't know what the stats are on SF v London but I would be interested. And of course, I think it is a disgrace we have homeless in the UK too
I forgot who it was, but there was a good joke by a comedian on this topic. He was talking about people throwing out that common "we are praying for you" line and he was like "Oh, so you're telling me you're going to sit on the couch and do nothing? Thanks."
The UK has gone off a cliff in recent years in this regard, thanks to constant TV and news propaganda trying to say that poverty is always the fault of irresponsibility and unbourgeoise attitudes.
Honestly, the whole bash-the-poor perception is becoming more prevalent in Australia too (I'm from the UK too), it's becoming more and more the norm but as a whole, I find Australia to be very Americanised.
I know the feeling. Luckily my parents stayed together. We picked aluminum cans. Dad found some hard construction work and I did softball scoreboards in the summer. My brother and I still regard fish as poor people food. Commodity meat shouldn’t be feed to dogs much less people. Although the peanuts and cheese were good.
It affects your thinking forever. Even when doing consulting gigs, I still spent sparingly like it all could go away. Even after Dad got a decent job elsewhere, it took a few years to feel comfortable again.
I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people using benefits cards buying food at grocery stores that I would never allow myself to buy. It’s not something that fosters empathy within me.
My family came to this country with absolutely _nothing_ and my parents saved and saved and saved to accumulate a safety net. The point of saving is so that when you lose our job you don’t face imminent castrophe. If you lose your job and you’ve saved you can migrate and find a job elsewhere. But millions of Americans don’t do this. It’s hard to feel bad for them when you put so much hard work and deny yourself so much just to save.
All of this modulo American healthcare means a lot of people who follow this script still end up with nothing. This is especially the case for entry-level jobs and other careers that are more available to the newly arrived.
If you work in a median-income job and are miserly for a long time and save up a year's income, you will have around $60k in the bank. Since you don't have a pension, materially all of this will be in mutual funds or the like if retirement is in your plans. But great, you have savings!
Now let anything happen that requires you to visit a hospital unexpectedly. Let's say your appendix bursts, so you couldn't meaningfully have avoided this calamity.
The average cost for an appendectomy in the US is $33k[1]. That's just the surgery, so assume you'll be out $40k or more. Now let your boss be a miser (like yourself) who decides to fire you because you can't come in. Depending on how quickly you find another job, how much it pays, and your ability to avoid another unexpected disaster (car trouble, sick kid, etc.) you could quite easily burn through the entire $60k of your savings from this one incident. So the very next time this happens, you're no better off than the folks who saved nothing.
But wait, it gets worse! Since your $60k was primarily in retirement savings, you will likely end up paying penalties and taxes for early withdrawal. So you will end up spending thousands of dollars to access your money. The rules are designed to kick you while you're down in this respect. And now you have no retirement savings, so people can talk about what a freeloader you are in your dotage.
(The probabilities get worse as you get older. For an example of how bad, check pricing for long-term care coverage or long-term disability coverage. Basically -- you can't reliably out-grasshopper biology.)
Our healthcare system in general makes the grasshopper approach more about luck than is apparent at first glance.
1 - Obviously, insurance currently will pay a large portion of the $33k, as the ACA mandates that health insurers sell a useful product. But this has not been the case except for the last 7ish years, and may not be the case again in the near future. It would be foolish to expect health insurance to function as "health insurance" in America for any extended period of time.
Your retirement savings have creditor protections - if you have hospital bills you cannot pay, you can go through bankruptcy or another non-payment strategy with your retirement savings largely intact.
It sucks ruining your credit with a bankruptcy event, but it beats out draining your retirement plans.
That's a good point. I could probably quibble with the practical aspects of the approach (e.g. job loss resulting from medical catastrophe), but you're right that you could probably preserve some of your retirement assets.
The flip side is this is a contributing factor in everyone's healthcare costs being so high.
This is an absurd strawman. Th emphasis is rightly placed on “modulo”.
You’re saying that because catastrophes happen there’s no point in saving? Yes health insurance was problematic before the ACA, but it definitely served its purpose for simple things like appendectomies. Not every single instance of needing savings is one that is financially ruinous, aka pre-ACA healthcare issue that involved preexisting conditions etc.
> You’re saying that because catastrophes happen there’s no point in saving?
No, nothing in what I wrote says that. Literally nothing I wrote should lead to that conclusion. (Good thing you brought up straw man though!)
The point is that saving doesn't guarantee insulation from poverty, and that in America medical costs are historically a leading reason why that is the case. This is in the context of a discussion around how we treat poor and homeless people.
So if you wanted to take one bullet point from what I wrote, you could do worse than "it's not morally okay to look down on poor people in the US because if you're not relatively lucky, that could also be you" or something similar.
So did things like being rejected for coverage due to "unexplained weight loss" when I was dating and trying to get into better shape and had lost a whopping 5 pounds over a few months (as noted in the application).
From my more cynical older viewpoint, I was never going to get decent coverage on the private market and that was simply a viable reason to present for rejection.
It shared the market with a lot more useless health insurance, and whether the useful plans were actually available to any given individual was not necessarily a function of how hardworking and conscientious they were.
When you say they had nothing they had nothing or did they have nothing and were also in 'debt'?
In my families historical situation the big issue is you're poor because of debts. You can't move because you're stuck in a mortgage or farm loan. You can't go to college because you owe money. You can't better yourself without help from the outside essentially. Imagine owing 2k+ a month but only making 1800 for a few years that will drain your savings.. imagine then it gets worse and worse and eventually you get laid off.
Being upside down causes the blood to go to your brain and like the article implies makes some people continue to make bad decisions. Say you get out of being upside down for just a small time you then rationalize spending over what you were like before because you think your ship finally came in... but in today's society that can change in a heartbeat.
I can see both points for immigrants it's hard to understand because generally people who immigrate are more enterprising risk taking and willing to find creative ways to change their circumstances.
This makes sense generally. In our case, though, my family was facing ethnic persecution. We came to the United States as United Nations refugees. We were not seeking economic opportunities.
If you live somewhere with a social safety net (I'm from the UK) then there isn't the same social imperative to save: saving becomes a luxury for those who are not the poorest in society (which in reality it is anyway)
This works because we end up sharing the disproportionate costs which sometimes fall on those who are unfortunate (they lose their job, they get sick, etc). It's much more efficient than everyone having to have individual savings.
And it sure is difficult for folks to save when they are working their butts off to pay crazy rent/mortgage and sky high medical/dental so they can stay healthy to work...plus college and grad school loans that got them the low paying job in the first place (although they went to school to have an actual profession which would have covered these expenses but doesn't come close anymore) all in a city where there are some jobs but no affordable housing. If you can't afford your monthly bills, you can't save and you go deeper into the hole. This is the case for many with graduate degrees in the US.
No one forced anyone into taking loans or living in places with expensive rent. Just because someone—erm, our whole culture—lied to you and you took the bait, doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. That’s how freedom works. It requires individuals to know, to teach their kids not to take loans from creeps (aka basically all loans), not to believe nonsense mantras like the value of higher education. Just because Barack Obama made some pretty speech about going to college doesn’t mean he’s right. It means he’s getting votes by making people feel good. Just because you feel like you “worked your butt off” doesn’t mean you actually did anything or that anyone owes you anything.
> Just because someone—erm, our whole culture—lied to you and you took the bait, doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. That’s how freedom works.
This sentence is contradictory: since individuals are told these lies/take this bait when they're minors--ie, not 'free' in any legal sense--they in fact are off the hook. When most minors, particularly those closer to the left-hand side of the privilege bell curve, do not have parents with the necessary social/economic background to teach them 'not to take loans from creeps', they are precluded from assessments such as the above.
Gosh. I didn't expect anyone here to be this unable to imagine/relate that many of our circumstances are not in our control. I know how hard it is to hear that innocent, strong, intelligent, accomplished people could be suffering, even after great accomplishment. It reminds us that we are all vulnerable to being crushed under the same weight ourselves. It's painful to watch if we have a shred of empathy in us, and I believe many do. One thing our culture is terrible at is teaching empathy, and that's because it doesn't offer any- not a shred. It's got this tough-guy cowboy tone that echoes, empty and false when you ask yourself how truly tough one has to be to kill and steal...to enslave... destroy natural resources. It would have been "tougher"to work together to embrace- to empathize -to aim to preserve irreplaceable resources of value, but we do create false narratives to cover for our most horrible mistakes and shames. Our society here in the US evolved from slavery making development possible and affordable - I assume you realize that. This same narrative forms a constantly evolving and deepening culture of abuse that permeates everything we do- how we educate, how we employ, how we treat our family and friends, neighbors and visitors.. and even fellow "hackers" who contribute to a conversation here. It is important we remember this. I'm responding to you so that someone reading your comment who is already feeling without hope knows that there isn't agreement on your perspective. Sometimes, hope in a place like this one is very important. When a people are abused and in turn become abusers themselves, as that is the natural tendency without conscious opposing effort, they eventually think that vulnerability means weakness and militarism means strength-a kind of tank-like war procession of knowing invincibility. This is the kind of thinking that totalitarianism happily thrives in-- and it surely is the opposite of freedom. (since you wanted to get into how freedom works) This kind of thing actually makes you vulnerable to control. Your attitudes are looking for or resonating from an unkind master- they accept abuse as the cost of doing business and that makes sense here in this culture,sadly. Don't you think it would be better to aim to be strong enough to listen, to seek understanding, to collaborate,to empathize,and to care about rather than this false "strong" enough to crush and dominate? That truly is a weapon that is easily turned against its own shooter in a second. When people are talked to in this way over and over, our most vulnerable-- are killed off in spirit by this , or they are killed off literally by the societal force of poverty or sadly, more literally by someone who was too vulnerable and could not bear another second of this kind of lack of empathy and smug cruelty in the face of their crying out to their community to be heard. Your people are in desperate need of help, even in the form of empathy on a forum for those who should be able to empathize with their plight. If that is you, man, I feel you and we will change things, and if it isn't,please give some thought to kindness perhaps especially because it clearly was not offered to you often enough.
I live in a Texas city. Rent here for a 2 bedroom apartment is over $1K a month. If you're a single mother of 2, you can expect $500 a month for EBT if you make $9 an hour. So after you get through paying your taxes, social security, medicare, etc... you're stuck with pocket change (that still has to go to electricity, gas for the car / maintenance) and use EBT to pay for your food.
Please spare the empathy bit. When you're working odd shifts, you KNOW the kids will eat the pizza rolls, so you buy the damned pizza rolls.
But let's say single mom gets a $4 raise. Guess what happens? EBT evaporates. Completely. Not only that, but she starts getting charged $160+ a month for the daycare that she sends her kids to so that she can work those odd hours. $3 more bucks? Her daycare subsidy evaporates. She's making $16 an hour, but now she can't afford to pay her bills.
Yeah, please lecture us again on why they can't save money.
Thank you for saying this. Our support structures are an embarassment. The hoops they make the homeless jump through for basic Medicaid are a crime as well. So of course no savings! But we both know there are people who would have that mom rent a studio apartment instead. Obviously none of those people are moms themselves.
Of course everyone is going to focus on that sentence when I also mentioned many other poor choices this hypothetical woman is making.
Tragedies will occasionally come out of left field, so I believe you can find real hard luck cases where everything was sunshine and rainbows when the couple decides to have a kid. But based on the people I've known personally the people with messed up lives are a subset of the people make consistently poor decisions. I bet that 9 single parents who are struggling financially out of 10 have some identifiable poor choice you could find if they were totally open and honest about their history. Does she have a 6 month emergency fund, health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, a large enough home, home insurance, a stable marriage, stable employment, flex in the budget? I think if you restrict to looking at parents who fit those criteria prior to the decision to have kids, the sliver who become this down on their luck is staggeringly tiny. And the parents who don't fit these can't afford kids.
> Does she have a 6 month emergency fund, health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, a large enough home, home insurance, a stable marriage, stable employment, flex in the budget?
Are you proposing that only the top 10% most economically secure people should have children? Because if you check those critera you'll find it's a surprisingly small minority of people that meet all of them.
(Something like half of all Americans have no emergency fund at all. Is anyone who lives in an "at-will" state truly in stable employment, either? And so on.)
Not in those terms. But I believe that list is achievable by the overwhelming majority of Americans if they were to make better decisions. The ones who can't afford to save a 6 month e-fund when they're childless are living precariously as it is and sure can't afford the disruption to their budget a kid would entail.
I feel like I'm talking into the wind here. I guess I hold unpopular opinions around here. Is personal responsibility so unpopular? Or do people not believe that decisions we make affect our lives?
Ultimately it comes down to: knowing nothing else about someone's life other than that they are poor and have children, what is your default assumption? Blame the person or blame the system they live in? This is even more acute when we're talking about people in statistical terms - the individual stories and details vanish and you're left with pure statistical artefacts.
The presumption that it's people's own fault that they are poor often comes with a presumption that they're lying or evasive when it comes to explaining why they're in that situation when really they don't want to have to justify their existence all the time.
Doubly so in areas of reproductive choice. Not only is abortion extremely controversial in America, but access to contraception is hardly guaranteed and not necessarily free.
And again, I think you're vastly overestimating how many people could realistically achieve your standards just through their own decisions. Are your standards achievable at all on minimum wage?
(edit: think about this on the larger scale - an America where everyone has 6 months savings and no personal non-mortgage debt would have a financial industry with hundreds of billions of dollars in very different places ...)
6 month emergency fund? Have you seen how many people in the US are living paycheque to paycheque? I know many people who make six figures who would struggle to meet that requirement.
Having grown up as a military brat I know about poor and I know that this kind of self-serving look-down-your-nose "advice" is just rationalization for living well in a society that enables sociopathy
If you can't afford a 6 month e-fund, you can't afford kids. A 6 month e-fund is not even that hard; you have to re-arrange your spending over your lifetime and not even spend less in total over your life.
I'm sorry you had to go through that as a kid. My beliefs on this subject are rooted in an empathy and caring for kids who could have had better childhoods if their parents had their shit together a little more.
Different people take different lessons out of being poor. My parents were poor too. They struggled (and sacrificed) on their own to care for me an my sibling.
Having kids when not entirely 100% secure in your future is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the parents make sure things go okay for the family. But that's hardly the case most of the time, and people over-extend way more than they can conceivably manage/sacrifice-to-handle. That's where family planning should help (by sharing knowledge), not just giving out free birth-control.
People need to be damn sure that they can provide for the kids, or that they will give 110% in order to make it so. But, welfare is sadly pretty-much at a point where it's just paying people en-masse to have children rather than helping people that got into bad situations. That's not moving society forward, or helping the needy; that's creating/breeding generation upon generation of a dependent under-class that will just vote to reinforce said government handouts.
Maybe don't choose to have kids when you're making $9/hour or have a chaotic domestic life?
Most children aren't actually planned. They occur because mother nature has spent millions of years perfecting the art of tricking people into liking sex.
Or, as I sometimes say, our genes are like virii: They don't care how miserable they make you in their quest to reproduce themselves. Coincidentally, genes and viruses are both made of RNA at their root (DNA being two RNA, basically).
Oh, I'm totally with you on the root causes. I'm just resentful that I pay more in taxes to support kids when the parents don't care enough to ensure they have a stable life prior to bringing them into the world.
And while I agree with you that evolution is powerful, reliable birth control is recent enough that we haven't adapted to it. It's quite possible to control when you have kids via abstinence, birth control, and abortion. But it does require long-term thinking and contentiousness, and my point is that these sob stories are mostly missing these personality traits.
I consider such questions to fall under the purview of sexual morality. As such, they are complicated questions that are very poorly served by draconian policies that people who can't afford a kid just should not have one.
Taken to its logical conclusion, I see no reason why that would not lead to a society where murdering kids up to a certain age is the expected norm when the family falls on hard times. If there is a god, I would hope he/she/it would go all Sodom and Gomorrah on it.
When we make public policies, we need to start from a baseline assumption that human sexuality exists and sometimes babies happen and those policies need to respect the privacy of the couple whose coupling created that child and their right to make a hard and complicated decision balancing multiple different interests. Sweeping policies of "just don't have kids" go horrendous places, including forced abortions of late stage pregnancies which are essentially murder because the baby is developed enough it would be viable outside the womb if the mother went into labor.
...or, just accept that if you are going to have kids with no income, both the parents and the kids life is going to be tough. If you're going to make decisions like that, you shouldn't expect the rest of society to pay for it.
You may call that sexual morality, I call it common sense.
That's dishonest arguing. I said no such thing, and I don't want to. By and large parents seem to be pretty happy with their kids, and I say more power to 'em.
Quite the opposite. I'm interested in people changing their decisions in such ways that children have better lives. Simultaneously, I'm am very much against my tax bill and my city's crime rate being higher because of completely avoidable problems.
That’s not the brutal cost of ACA, that’s the brutal cost of inserting businesses into healthcare via offering them tax incentives for no reason. Simple solution exists:
1) government provides taxpayer funded healthcare
2) government mandates everyone buys health insurance via healthcare.gov
3) government is not involved in at all, including Medicaid and Medicare and does not offer any kind of assistance to business to offer health insurance such as tax deductions
It seems to me that a lot of government laws are created assuming people will continue to do what they have been regardless of how the rules changed. The idea that people will do something different in response to a law, like switching from few full time positions to lots of part time positions to avoid paying benefits, seems to be completely dismissed.
It reminds me of therapist mandated reporting of child abuse making it so those most at risk of committing child abuse no longer seeking therapy, leading to an overall increase in harm. Or the HIV laws in California that resulted in people refusing to get tested. And it makes me think that limiting ones ability to own a gun based on mental health will result in people being less likely to seek mental help. Why is there such dismissal of secondary effects of laws even after seeing them occur?
> if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings?
The size of income is not the only difference between people. People can have different families, get different informal education at home, etc.
If you are poor but smart, and so is your family, and you love and help each other... there is a chance you will sooner or later get out of poverty somehow; as long as one succeeds, they can provide help and advice to others, etc.
It is a completely different situation if e.g. someone in your poor family is crazy. Crazy people can create all kinds of difficulties, whether interpersonal or financial, which can consume all your energy and savings.
I know people who have decent income, but can't save any of it, because they have relatives who regularly get themselves in all kinds of financial trouble, knowing that they can always ask Joe to save them. For example, they don't pay their bills, and then call Joe for help when a collector comes and wants the money back with some extra interest. And Joe doesn't know how to tell them "no" and just watch them lose the roofs above their heads. Therefore, no matter how many years of decent income will Joe have, he will never have savings.
I know people who spend a lot of their attention mitigating various problems that their crazy relatives with too much free time created. The amount of energy someone else spends on building a startup, they spend solving artificially created problems which wouldn't exist if their crazy relatives wouldn't make up things, or if the rest of the family wouldn't believe them.
I guess what I am trying to say is that people are connected; and some of them start connected to decent people, and others start connected to huge heaps of shit. Social capital is also a form of capital, and it can be negative.
If Joe rather has relatives no matter how crazy and draining on his own financial and mental wealth, than to just cut bridges, protect himself and let people assume their shitty decisions, then be it, he made his choice.
It's a fairly common phenomenon to see immigrant households doing better than the American-born population, despite the obvious hurdles of no savings and not speaking English. Every time the census data gets published, you tend to see a few articles pop up about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html
The ant and the grasshopper is a just a gross simplification.
Both are strategies that can be valid and work in different sceneries. When you spend some money you create a social net, maybe you have more friends or hang with more people that could help you in troubled times. For the "ant" people, the colony (family) is all. Can't trust anybody out of that circle, so saving the money is the correct and only option. For solitary "grasshopper" people, without strong family bonds, spending money and being generous with their money can pay more in the future if they make wise choices about whom to spend the money. Safety net can be made with money or with social bonds. Both can fail and no one is more virtuous than the other. The best is probably having a mix of both.
Upvote for the story but "simply need help" is not a policy a government can use to solve the problem. Granted, solving this problem for everyone is nigh impossible but maybe you can give us an example of a policy that would have helped out your individual family to give us some ideas?
Studies have shown that it would be cheaper to simply house people than the wild hoops they have to jump through.
Helping the poor is big business, which creates a backwards incentive structure. No one is willing to press these companies to the wall, but hey, they can have rewards ceremonies and drive nice cars. They must be doing something great with all those accolades even though more dead bodies are dumped in the bay each year, right?
Didn't a US city try that and confirm that you are correct? I mean, it's not just studies but also real world experience. Or to put it another way: the studies were studying real world interventions, for instance this one
Conservatives in the deep south I find have belief in this, they think that giving money to people that have none is fundamentally stealing from them through taxation and then giving it to someone that doesn't work as hard as them.
Similarly, I find it "funny" (tragicomical) when poor Americans lists expenses and then complain about how much income tax they pay.
To be fair, the poor have a high tax burden in the US compared to other industrialized countries. And they get fairly little for their taxes... Still an Uber driver who complains about taxes being high is sad, because lower taxes will only hurt him.
On the contrary, as a southerner, I see plenty of northerners move down here and spend more fighting property taxes than paying them because their kids are grown and they shouldn't have to pay for schools any more.
Hehe, similarly, you'll also hear poor Americans complain about taxes.. sure they have a high tax burned relative to rich Americans, when compared to others developed countries.
But complaining about taxes doesn't reduce poverty.
When people who are receiving help are those I remember in grade school ignoring school work to focus on bullying others (myself included), I definitely feel this way. There is no reallocation of social resources that I lack due to previously mentioned experiences, so I feel there shouldn't be reallocation of fiscal resources to help those that participated. (And I use 'feel' because I know this isn't a rational line of thought.)
This response unintentionally demonstrates what I think is a huge part of this puzzle: that government is the default "fixer" of this problem. That's an easy assumption to make, because it removes all personal responsibility while assuaging one's conscience. The Bystander effect in full force. What if we instead start assuming it is -our- responsibility to help the helpless?
Many comments in this thread mention the disparity between the Haves and Have-nots in San Francisco. Imagine the impact if all those Haves decided to use their own time and money to aid the homeless/hungry/needy/destitute? Instead, we fall back to blaming the other side's politicians and policies and we hope that someday Big Brother will take care of everything.
This is the kind of thing that needs an institution (government or not) because otherwise the money goes to the most convincingly miserable looking people, not the ones in need. It's hard to prove, but it seems like most of the "homeless" on the NYC subway are just doing an act like the rest of the buskers. There's money to be had, and they've made a job of figuring out how to get it. If you can be sure that the problem is competently handled by the government, you can ignore people asking for handouts and not encourage that behavior.
I'm not just advocating for everyone to give money away on the street. Some of the worst poverty in the U.S. is in places with huge amounts of brain power (like SF). I'm sure those big brains could come up with better solutions than handouts. Like the countless charities out there that are far more efficient than government.
Do you think the problem is, or can be, competently handled by government? I think government can get results by brute-forcing with massive amounts of money, but history shows that it's still terrible at it (hello War on Poverty). Now, I don't mean to say government should have no role/do nothing. I'm saying that it should not be the -default- entity to take care of things because it allows the citizenry to absolve themselves of all responsibility. Government isn't some wise entity - it's just people. And oftentimes those people are thousands of miles away, working with incentive structures poorly aligned with the issue at hand.
One benefit of transforming this issue into a matter of personal responsibility is that the incentives are much stronger - if it's MY money being used, I'm far more likely to strive for efficiency. If your charity gobbles up my donation with admin costs, I'm "shopping elsewhere". A somewhat-related example of this strategy was a method used in Africa to combat elephant poaching. I can't find the reference now, but basically the government decided to "give" land areas to citizens, who would be responsible for poaching issues. It ended up working much better than when the government sought to directly reduce poaching.
Easy by the rest of my comment maybe I didn't illustrate it enough but a lot of people share ideas on how to fix it without truly understand it. Poverty is easy to fix. It's the giving up personal wealth to prevent it that's the hard part. As per the link it basically says the same crap everyone says, the "Helping the homeless is hopeless" narrative. Now saying that once you're screwed you'll never be able to think 'normal' again... c'mon man.
It's hard to get people out of poverty than enrich people before that happens. It's easier to bring the extremely wealthy down to a certain level to accommodate for those that don't have the ability to get unlimited tries.
Wealth and safety nets give families chances where those in poverty can't afford to take. "Move across the country and change jobs or risk dying of starvation with your family in the car because once you got there the job's gone" "Spend all your savings going to college at the expense of your kids when there are no jobs right now" "It'll cost hundreds of thousands for chemotherapy but on average patients with your diagnosis get 3 more years typically of life"... these are called risks. The wealthy get more rewards because they can afford more risks. Most who are in poverty are in poverty because they themselves or their family could not afford the risk. If those who are high lend a hand it could help immensely.
you listed a bunch of advantages of wealth that I dont think anyone would dispute. and you talk about taking that away. how is this supposed to help people who are already impoverished? it seems like you want there to be more people in poverty, not fewer.
> and you talk about taking that away. how is this supposed to help people who are already impoverished? it seems like you want there to be more people in poverty, not fewer.
It's about income distribution.
It's true that the economy is not a cake you can split in several parts, so it's not a zero sum game, but I think that inequalities should be reduced, and that means taking from the ones who have, to give to those who have less.
And if you take from the ones who have the most, you are not creating poor people, you are just improving the balance.
And again, it's about the extremes, there is less need to touch the incomes of those in the middle.
I don't understand how taking from the rich to give to the poor would be a bad thing.
so you've got some people who (for whatever reason) are prevented from making a decent income. how are you proposing to solve that problem by routing an income that is contingent on their inability to generate their own? We have tried that for 3 generations and poverty is worse than ever, inequality is worse than ever, the food stamps go to buy drugs, and the only solution you people have is to take more money from "the rich" and pour it into the same failed social programs.
> I think that inequalities should be reduced, and that means taking from the ones who have, to give to those who have less.
people who generate their own income are going to have whatever they generate less whatever you take. people who cannot generate their own income are going to have whatever you take less your operating costs, and spend it on non-discretionary consumption items like food, rent, healthcare. which are provided by people who don't need your welfare. so you're simultaneously creating a dependent class or poor people and a guaranteed income stream for the wealthy. this is why your idea has always failed.
>And if you take from the ones who have the most, you are not creating poor people, you are just improving the balance.
you'll observe that the ones who have the most are the ones who write the tax code. good luck taking from them.
>I don't understand how taking from the rich to give to the poor would be a bad thing.
1. creates a class of poor people who are dependent on social programs for survival.
2. "Taking from the rich" happens through a political system that is designed to protect the interests of a subset of rich people. so the rules are manipulated to take a lot from rich people without political connections, and route money towards rich people with political connections.
GP suggested that a redistribution of resources could allow the poorer section of society to engage in the type of risky behaviour that often results in financial success. You then assumed that this means depriving wealthier people of the ability to engage in that sort of behaviour. That isn't a logical consequence. You seem to be assuming that any redistribution will deprive wealthier people of these opportunities which is obviously not true. For instance, GP might be suggesting that only the wealthiest 1% should be required to make a sacrifice for the benefit of the poor.
> As per the link it basically says the same crap everyone says, the "Helping the homeless is hopeless" narrative.
Is that really how you interpreted TFA?
I read it entirely opposite to that interpretation. It explained why helping those suffering scarcity is necessary and why society needs to revisit attitudes and mechanisms to do so.
I read the article and yes indeed got the opposite impression. That's what poverty does though.. makes you see the glass half empty perhaps as per the article implies.
I don't think this adds anything to the discussion except for a facetious tone. The OP explained exactly why he doesn't like reading the comments literally in the next breath from what you selectively quoted.
I suspect that there's a missing qualifier to parent's comment --something like 'from people who haven't lived what I have lived' -- but absent that it sounds like other people's experiences are of no or negative value.
> We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems.
It's worse than this. Now society thinks that government is going to take care of the problems. The past fifty years and the War on Poverty have shown us how well that works. I wish that, instead of spending more untold billions on new programs and bureaucracies, government would switch to facilitating citizens to create, man, and implement the help that is so sorely needed by the poor and helpless. Encourage the citizenry to take personal responsibility for helping others, instead of offering an easy out to do nothing.
> I don't know why I'm saying all this the solution is simple but the problem is hard to acknowledge. The poor and destitute simply need help. We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. When we do finally give help it's so conditional and shamed that the hole of guilt someone fell in is practically inescapable.
I really don't understand why this is so controversial in North America. The 'Fuck You All, I've Got Mine' mentality is a sign of a morally dead society.
Sentiments like these are why I can't Fuck with libertarians. Even though I never experienced as much, I know there but through the grace of God go I. And I don't believe in god.
Given that about a third of the country would identify themselves as progressives, it's hard to see if they gave of their own free will, there wouldn't be plenty of help to the disadvantaged.
But I rarely (never?) see any rhetoric in DNC politics about party members donating of their own free will to anything other than the Democratic party.
Virtue doesn't scale. Hence taxes for public good stuff because otherwise only the town with a generous Moneybags would have roads or a fire service (and the town with a racist Moneybags would only have a fire service in the white quarter). It's also hard to coordinate - see disaster response.
We're talking simply about charity. There are plenty of wealthy liberals - like Hollywood, Gates, Buffet, Silicon Valley, etc. All the people who donated to Sanders. Plenty of money to give to charity.
And if a hypothetical commune became dominant and an existential threat to the existence of a hypothetical libertarian society? The Communist Party of the Philippines operates as a parallel government in many respects, do you think that should be allowed? The Zapatistas?
It's misleading to say that it would be a-ok to start a socialist society in a libertarian society. It (like many aspects of libertarian analysis, in my opinion) ignores the reality of a political situation like the one described.
It's not misleading. Hundreds (thousands?) of communes have been set up in the US. As far as I know, nobody has tried to shut them down. Nobody is stopping you from joining an existing one. You can find them via Google.
More to the point, the notion that communes are a threat to libertarianism is flat out false. Libertarianism is about freedom to associate with and do business with people as you please. That includes pooling ones' interests in a commune.
What you cannot do under libertarianism is force someone to join, or prevent someone from leaving.
The true premise of capitalism is that a person can own the rights to the exploration of natural resources, most commonly land. Everything else is compounded abstraction. I used to think it was more 'artificial' than it really is; but in fact it seems "natural" that people who lived for a long while in a piece of land deserve the right to keep it; and it also seems "natural" that through force you can take and keep land regardless of who 'deserves' its. Not good, maybe, but natural.
My point is that if these things are natural, it is likely that we'd reach a similar structure if we started from scratch.
I don't really think that the true premise of capitalism is going away until we reach a Star Trek post-scarcity level of wealth. I do think we can - and should - combat the ill-effects that come from the exercise of a capitalist system for billions of people.
Agreed. I would like to see more people approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and move forward trying to improve it(capitalism). Unfortunately, there's still a lot of stigma(in the US).
That's because forcible communism's track record is simply horrific. You can create or join a commune as you please, I have no problem with that. But when you try to force people into one, or prevent them from leaving, a lot of people are going to fight you.
I'm not talking about forcing people into a commune, I'm talking about approaching capitalisms flaws using the tools we have available instead of pretending the free market is a perfect system. That's a crazy false dichotomy and is exactly the kind of stigma I am talking about.
The Marxist critique of capitalism includes critique of the capacity for improvement within capitalism; you seem to want people to approach Marxism as a critique of capitalism and then ignore key parts of that critique.
I think Karl Marx is right about a lot things, I think Adam Smith is right about a lot of things- I think our(The US, Global Economy) current system must be incredibly flawed for so much wealth to be concentrated in such a way that a shockingly small group of individuals hold a useless amount of wealth. Redistribution in the form of systems that improve everyone's quality of life is the only thing that makes sense...I honestly don't think how one could see otherwise?
The idea that human progress only happens under a free market is totally detached from reality and most of human history. I'm resisting inserting a joke about libertarianism here for fear being a bit too on the nose.
True, if we're talking about poor ol' Hayek and Rothbard... but Ayn Rand discourages it and she's the standard bearer. Interestingly, I always found the aesthetics, philosophy, methods of Randianism quite Stalinist.
A lot of great stories in this thread, a lot of them are quite disheartening US stories of poverty.
Mine was the opposite, really. Grew up as a welfare-kid in Western-Europe with a disabled dad and a sibling. The state provided for us, the three of us made do with about $1200 (roughly the $7.50 minimum wage in the US at a 40h 52w work schedule) or so in today's money, living in the capital city so rent and insurance ate up quite a bit of our budget. Still, we had a great childhood, went to university, always did sports, vacations, had books and computers at home. Everything was always a few generations old, everything was second hand, I still have clothes that are 15 years old. I always worked to buy my own clothes, phone, trips etc, such that my dad was 'only' paying rent/food from age 14, and eventually we chipped in there as well. I feel tremendously grateful for having been born here, socio-economic mobility is a lot higher here than elsewhere (the American dream irony). I've got a postgrad degree, steady job, traveled the world etc. I never wanted for anything, honestly. The government helped us out with tuition fees, insurance, rent, and I happily pay my fair share back in taxes. Most importantly perhaps, I never felt the damage of stress of being poor, we were never scared for our future, if anything, it looked bright. I don't feel any less than others, not ashamed or fearful. I owe a lot of this to the state and my fellow citizens.
I'm sure how people deal with stress and difficult situations varies from person to person. My personal story and 2-cents:
When I was 17 I went through a period of near destitute. I was living on my own, my father had passed away, and I had dropped out of school. Yet, I found myself with some very good jobs, such as GE Capital, a big Oil and Gas companies IT department, etc.
Regardless of the opportunity, my arrogance, ambivalence, or immaturity (take your pick) cost me a series of good jobs in short order. The result was I had no money, no electricity, no gas for my car, and not much to do. Eating cold beans out of a can in the dark tends to force you to re-think your priorities.
In my case, I got very motivated very quickly and dug myself out of that hole after a few months. I think that's the point Orrin Hatch was trying to make. If I had a fallback, I would have, without a doubt, kept coasting along from job to job. I've never looked at work or money the same way since as I never want to find myself there again.
So long story short, being poor (by my own doing) didn't necessarily motivate me, but looking into oblivion sure as hell did.
Unfortunately taking risks to better yourself and having it work out are the exception not the rule. And I have to assume that a non-socialist society supports this better in almost every way, based on historical evidence in my own head. (flawed as that may be)
Is it not possible to make something "work out" without taking risks? A quote from the olden (perhaps wiser) days, was "don't quit your day job", has this sage advice been lost?
Unless we are going to avoid widely classifing a "risk" as something "scary" or "hard", then isn't changing jobs risky?
I think the definition of a risk is very relative though. If someone is barely making ends meet (with no signs of improving their situation if they keep their same routine), then taking time to educate themselves (a vocation school, getting resources on how to stretch a dollar, etc.) may seem like a risk. When you don't have education, time, or money every decision you take on your day to day is a risk.
I'm not going to pretend that some people don't thrive when looking at the poverty void -- they are the exception to the rule. There are also those who coast on gov't funding. There's probably many reasons why someone would coast, but if I'm in a system that has so thoroughly forgotten about me since birth (e.g. not having any opportunities for better education for one), why would I want to partake in it? I think the cost of a few people not trying to make changes for the better is by far outweighed by helping those you need support in their most desperate time.
It's not about giving people a safety net when the have moonshot ideas to start a business. It's to have a safety net when they need a bit of time to improve themselves, which when you have little time and money is a huge risk.
>I think the definition of a risk is very relative though.
That was part of my point, though I worded it poorly.
>then taking time to educate themselves (a vocation school, getting resources on how to stretch a dollar, etc.) may seem like a risk.
I think the biggest issue here is kids. I taught at a local community college, and I can say that almost everyone there was taking a risk of some kind to get through school. But the moms that had to leave class early to pick up their kid from one place and bring them to another place and then go to Walmart for work to make ends meet.
I had a student who was homeless, and now has a good job. He worked harder than 99% of the other students. (I taught for about 12 years)
I also had a student that was watching porn and left his baby in the tub and it drowned.
These are the people that would benefit from help, but the problems that I see are that they have help right now. I know this because I was a homeless teen on the streets for a while. And there's help all over the place.
I think people that have never been homeless don't understand it at all. It's a totally foreign world. But half the people that were my friends were trying to get off the streets, and the other half were not. Drugs were pervasive, and one friend was this happy, carefree kid, and a year later when I was back in town, he was on meth and was mugging people.
What people are missing is good parents that could teach their kids how to live, especially when it gets hard. Save money, don't waste your life on drugs, work hard, be decent to people.
Many of my friends were happy being on the streets (I was for a time) because home life was so wretched.
What would happen if all these kids got a chunk of money every month? Drugs and entertainment, I gurantee you that. Why? Because they saw no hope in spending it wisely when many couldn't look further than a day in the future. Misery an hopelessness was their daily life.
Some kids would get some money, and they go to a fancy restaurant for a single meal. One time a bunch of kids spanged (spare changing) for a whole day just to get a night at the Hilton hotel and bunch of them took showers there. (there are showers at the shelter, and they still did this) And yes, the shelter was totally safe (some theft) but it was kids, not crazed adults. I think the adults lives are just an extension of what the teens experience, but a more realistic outlook, and hopelessness is spread out over time differently. (I was homeless as an adult for awhile as well)
The kids that made it out were the ones looking for jobs and housing, even when all they had was a local shelter and general mailbox and phone service provided by a local volunteer house for homeless kids.
Risk plays no part in helping any of these kids, or me when I was there. There daily life is full of risk. There were kids selling drugs, a few prostituted themselves in various ways. (though this gets worse the longer you are out there) I finally got a job, but had nothing to spend money on. I had hundreds of dollars in my pocket at one point, and was still homeless.
Unless you have 10k or more, what "risk" could you possibly take without family or a huge support network? And if you did have that money, but no support, it would be insane to take a risk. I think talking about risks in regards to helping the needing is red herring, a strawman, and distraction.
What these people need is real hope, so that when they change from spending $30 a day at McDonalds, to spending $100 a week at a grociery store, that they truly believe and understand they are making their future better.
I have so much more to say about this, but I will pause. I find many comments about the poor and downtrodden to be based on faulty understanding of these people's reality. It reminds me of white people arguing about what black people experience. Can they? Of course, but they often sound silly and misinformed.
i grew up poor, and it was frustrating to see the stupid mistakes my family and people around me would make over, and over, and over. then people like the researchers in this article say infuriating things like 'their bad decisions are just because they are cognitively tired, and actually many of them could be even considered shrewd!"
being cognitively tired does play a role, but more so because they are cognitively lazy. their bad / lazy decisions are confounded by the fact they are trying to solve problems caused by making bad decisions in the first place. on top of that, most dont value education.
i typed a long story but deleted it. in short, 4/6 of us siblings dropped out of school, those same 4 had a large life insurance policy from the airforce which they blew almost immediately.
we have so many opportunities in this country, but it still does require that we go to school, work, and use our head. i am aghast on how so many people simply refuse to THINK. so many people with money problems have no idea how much money annually they spend on ANYTHING. how can you even begin to talk to someone about getting out of poverty, if they wont even calculate how much they are spending on that 5$ starbucks and 600$ phone.
Also grew up poor, and seen people of all income levels be cognitively lazy. I felt like I really started to get the way success works when I saw successful people waste money. I saw individuals make flippant decisions to throw away 50,000$ on software that their organization will never use. MSDN licenses for 100 people that can't and never will code. I've seen a salary man whose job it was to install software on tablets one day a year, the rest of the year he watched Netflix.
I'm aghast when I see well off people just burn money. There is an entire population of people who find success via a different road than intelligence or intrinsic value.
But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons.
I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on an expensive car. That's the kind of decision making that keeps you poor.
As income inequality increases, relative percentage comparisons like this become more infuriating than comforting.
The more money you have, the dumber you can be with it and still be guaranteed survival. At a certain level of poverty, you have to operate at peak financial efficiency to live a mean lifespan.
50,000$ properly spent could change the course of human history. It could supply the nearby treatment center for children with behavioral/emotional problems for years!
I could buy a few mig welders, some angle grinders, associated PPE, several hundred pounds of scrap metal, and still have enough left over to pay two unemployed people in rural Missouri to make tiny metal sculptures for model towns for 6-12 months.
The above is my goofballs, no thought business plan for 50k. I'm not even trying and the ROI on that hairbrained stupid plan is better than atleast 10 different decisions I've seen made over 50k.
I'm not even being creative or thoughtful. For someone like me to see someone be told "We don't need this." and them respond "eh fuck it, it's just 50k" is...
It's astounding. It's mind altering. It's the name brand bread vs. human lives metaphor in your face and on fire.
You act like spending $50k on something you don't need is the equivalent of lighting the cash on fire. That money goes back into the economy. It provides jobs, it increases money velocity. For the economy as a whole, it's really good that the wealthy or large companies aren't super frugal with their money. After all, someone has a business employing people to make custom leather interiors for private jets, when the standard interior (or first class commercial) will do just fine.
I have very often thought what would happen if I was to suddenly come into a substantial amount of wealth and this is what I would do with a no holds barred method of paying skilled people to do cool things that they do not have the money to do otherwise. There are incredibly talented people that if given 20k to make their Magnus opus they would make the most breathtaking and increadible stuff imagined.
On HN a few weeks back, I read someone's comment that some poor people are poor because they own cheap cars that cost a fortune in repairs because they're always breaking down, preventing them from saving up for a better one that won't need repaired so often, which would allow them to save and get ahead.
Maybe that's not always the kind of decision-making that keeps you poor after all.
I don't buy that argument outright. I have a six figure savings account and six fig investments going on in my mid 30s earned on my lonesome in the low-wage midwest, and I've always been taken advantage of here on top of it (low paid even for here). Frugality is my game because I care not about materialism.
I believe one has to have a brain the size of a pea, to be impressed by someone's possessions. I coudln't care less about someone having a Mercedes. The Europeans have the right idea, being a big spender is actually extremely tacky and anti-social in my view.
One of my cars is terrible (2000 Mazda). I waste, but not much. I'm repairing it quite often. A single $500 repair is one (very cheap) car payment on a new one. I'm way ahead keeping the old beast going. I can replace the whole car 3 to 6 times over before I get to the price of a new one.
What I do pay with is inconvenience and my time to drag it into the shop. That's value too, but purely financial costs I'm winning.
Overall in the end, I'm going to pickup a cheap (15K), affordable car to replace it with. Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra range of vehicles. At those prices, the financial gain is outweighed by convenience for me. So we all "have a price". At least until more of those Tesla Model 3's have been out a while, I'll spend more than I normally would on one of those beauties. :)
A lot of people say it's not worth fixing a car that's worth less than the repair. I disagree, it's money in vs money out. Same concept as calories in calories out. Obviously, the comment you quoted would be correct when you start dealing with outliers/extremes. There's money pits, then there's real money pits.
I don't knnow how accurate it is, but it does make sense for some things, such as shoes, and thinking about it, train tickets (season tickets are better value for money but very expensive), and essentially anything where bulk/long term is better value, but only being affordable to some people, and I think the space to store things comes into play as well...
I don't think the problem is that they cost a fortune. Overall the money spent is probably the same.
The problem is that an unreliable car is far more likely to cause sudden "emergency" events that require a lot of liquid money upfront and if you don't have that money this might cause a chain reaction so you lose your job and then your home.
Simply isn't true-if that were the case companies that make millions would never go bankrupt-yet they do. Why? According to you, they'd spend a great deal of time weighing pros and cons...
The fact is you can't always weigh pros and cons and always get a positive outcome. There are many poor people that will always be poor-but entire industries have spent decades making decisions weighing pros and cons and completely collapsed because of things outside of their control. Why can this principle not apply to a portion of the poor?
I'm sure it does apply to a great deal of the poor. My comment was simply that some people make terrible financial decisions. Are you implying that no one is poor due to their own decisions? It's all just things outside their control?
I resonate the feeling and agree that people need to also take responsibility, however I see people all the time making poor choices, and it isn't just poor people. If you're down on your luck, that $6 coffee ritual may be not sound so bad at the moment. Someone who is exhausted, and probably malnourished (surprisingly common in America), will say to themselves... I'm craving a delicious coffee and hopefully it'll give me enough energy to keep going, and sometimes it does work temporarily.
That's why I try to maintain the same lifestyle no matter how much I do or don't have. Once you adjust your spending habits, it's very difficult to change them. I just think out what makes sense, how far I have to be happy, then build a routine around sensible choices. Half of the time, the sensible choices are the healthiest anyway (like taking lunch to work vs fattening fast food).
Nailed it on the head that rational thinking under stress is hard, so people should get their affairs in order when they get a lull in life where they can step back and setup a healthy (financially & otherwise) routine.
I agree with all you said - I could have written it myself.
But I do suspect that, like myself, you are well-educated and probably from a stable home with parents that were good role models.
Someone whose home life was chaos probably wasn't lucky enough to been demonstrated those life skills.
It's sad, but I don't want to pay for people making totally avoidable bad decisions. I don't know the solution but whatever we can do to avoid kids being raised in chaotic home situations would help in the future.
Yes and no on my background. My immediate family can only be defined as white trash, which from a parental point of view I'd define as- simply do not care what happens to their kids. It was an oppressive patriarchy for sure, my dad was concerned with himself and not my mom or his kids. He came first, and that was the end of it. Very ignored, and tormented daily in my house physically and verbally by a sibling. Even facing violent confrontations into my 20s. I had to punch my brother to the floor at 25, who for essentially no reason started swinging at me, in front of our mom. It never ended, till I cut them all off in just the past couple years. Enough is enough once the same patterns continue into middle age, they're incapable of having any semblance of a normal relationship with me. I have repercussions and issues from that, someday I'll have to deal with. Till then I just carry the frustration and anger that I have inside for no easily identifiable reason.
My extended family, grandparents, cousins, etc, are mostly doctors, holding PHDs or otherwise very wealthy from successful businesses. I was motivated out of a sense of feeling unworthy, thanks to my narcissistic dad. For education I was marked as a genius in junior high, that fell apart at 13 though, just no guidance at all. College, I loaded up my stuff myself into a borrowed pickup truck, carried it into the dorm myself, organized my loans myself, organized classes and how to graduate myself. Worked 30 hours a week throughout to pay my bills. I never had help for anything. For someone my age to be raised in cloth diapers as I was, and growing up in a house with no air conditioning, gives you an idea on how it was. I'm a product of the 1930s, not 80s. Had they not had a Commodore they initially bought for taxes in the house, I would've been screwed like these other kids. I've also worked nonstop since 12 years of age. I'm tired, and not even that old today. I'm not complaining, others have it worse, just explaining that no, I'm not one of the well-connected, pampered white boys. It sounds odd, but I barely identify with being white as a social class. The way I see life is that we're born alone, and we die alone. It's just the way it really is, the rest is someone who loves you blowing smoke up your ass.
So for me, good genes, bad immediate family. Most of these poor folks have bad genes and a bad family. So I may have escaped, but I know what you mean with your comment. I will say I'm probably more sympathetic than you are, I will pay for others' mistakes. Due to my experiences, I probably have more legit, heartfelt sympathy for the underclass than these fly-by-night liberal types that do lots of virtue signaling on social media. It may be why I married a Mexican woman, she's very smart and being how I view life, she's my reason I don't just say ciao and put a bullet in my head. She brings some emotion out of me, I love her, and we were both tossed out. It's all good and easy when half your needs are handled for you by someone else. I'd settle to just have someone to talk to that cared about me (my wife fills that void, but I mean in my family otherwise). When times get tough and they're truly on their own, a lot of these people, who are weak, will be goosestepping or whatever is the next easiest grease they can walk on. We're seeing the rise of that already, for another class, who thinks they're forgotten.
To fix the home solution that you mention, I have a bit of experience there. I think the turn key easy fix is making parents criminally liable for their children until 21 or 25 years of age. They'll either pay attention like good parents and raise them right, or at least turn them in to mental health when they're building bombs or amassing an arsenal. It's what I came to, given my experiences and what I hear from my wife, who is a public school teacher.
Of course, that's not a real, holistic fix for a failed society like mine (USA). Most people are interested in quick solutions to problems (take the guns etc), and more parental responsibility should solve a lot of problems at once for a society that clearly isn't civilized and has a smorgasbord of issues to address. If you read this far, congrats.
Do you have any data, studies, or real references as to why this is, or do you simply call them lazy to feel better about yourself?
You've clearly outlined a trend-are we really to believe that the poor are simply more cognitively lazy than every other population? That is why they are poor? Quite the claim.
It seemed that he was talking about himself or his own family. So I took that as an anecdote. I doubt he relishes bashing his own family but called it like he believes he sees it.
My stance is close to what you're getting at. I don't think they're purposefully lazy most of the time. Though I agree with the OP that some have to be, there's no way. I'm intellectually lazy oftentimes, why wouldn't a discouraged, down on their luck poor person be? Makes zero sense that they wouldn't.
Being paid less and less in my life, while others around me make more, has been extremely demotivating. I can't imagine how the life gets sucked out of people with lesser will-power than others have.
I think it's not a claim that some people simply can't be bothered to go to school and better themselves. They just don't care. It's either stemming from their psychological profile, childhood abuse, or other factors that took down their motivation and self-esteem. They're giving themselves what they deserve, in their mind, accepted their social status.
Many of us do it. I accepted that I'm "working class" long ago and strongly identify with it. Even forgoing clothing that is outside of my class status. I'm a sturdy rural guy that even though I live in one of the largest cities in the US, prefer my blue jeans and work shirts (old fashioned Scottish plaid button ups for a country boy like myself) with work boots (think a black pair of Doc Martens). So I can completely see how others adopt their possibly lower socio-economic status as well. I like mine, it's part of my identity and I'm comfortable in my own skin that way. Maybe they are too, even if it doesn't benefit them.
I agree with this. I was destitute when I was 18, but I managed to come back through a series of part time jobs. I've always lived within my means but since my job do not really pay much anyway, it's very hard to save.
Now that I'm 40 and poor again (lost my job due to cutbacks), it is impossible for me to recover. Getting new jobs are much harder and people are pretty discriminative towards my age. Nowadays, even employers choose younger people for part-time jobs, since I'm over the hill agewise and overqualified.
The social pressure can be overwhelming, unless you're not super-super strong, mentally. We cannot assume the average person to be so strong.
Why is the social pressure overwhelming? Socially sometimes it seems that it's better to crawl into a cave and never be seen in your poverty, than be seen as a 40-45+ year old doing janitorial work (or other kinds of jobs most people find degrading, despite the fact that to your face they will deny it), by your friends and family. Also a lot of people can't accept the downturn in their lives. That's how you get alcoholism, depression, drug abuse. It's much harder to wake up and say: I've failed all these years, I need to start over.
If we go by anecdotes, I knew only two persons who switched careers at mid life successfully: one was a woman and the other a man and both had a spouse who brought decent money to the household and was supportive.
100% of society can't be brought out of poverty. Here's an example: If we motivated everyone to get a college education, we would have people flipping burgers who are college educated making min wage and living in poverty while struggling to put food on the table.
Why not? If you define poverty as being below the Xth percentile of wealth, then it is tautological that we cannot reach 100% non-poverty.
However, if you define poverty in absolute terms, then there is no fundamental reason why we cannot reach 100% non poverty. All that is necessary is for society to produce enough "stuff" that, when divided by the total population, is still greater than the poverty threshold.
In practice, the much harder problem is distributing that stuff such that everyone actually gets enough to put them beyond the poverty threshold. This is certainly a hard problem, but I don't see any reason to think that it is fundamentally unsolvable.
> Why not? If you define poverty as being below the Xth percentile of wealth, then it is tautological that we cannot reach 100% non-poverty.
This is indeed how it is defined in many wellfare states eg in Europe.
"People are considered at risk of monetary poverty when their equivalised disposable income (after social transfers) is below the at-risk-of-poverty threshold. This is set at 60 % of the national median equivalised disposable income after social transfers."
No. "60% of the national median" is not the same thing as fixing a percentile, and it is perfectly possible to not have poverty under that definition.
For example, in a country with ten people whose incomes are 7, 7, 8, 8, 10, 10, 12, 50, 47212 and 4000000000000000, there is no poverty after that definition (the median would be 10). As you can see, it doesn't even need to be a very egalitarian society!
"60% of the Median" can easily be a zero number of elements from the set.
In this case, median means "sorted by income, at which point have we divided the entire dataset in half". For a dataset with more than 2 elements (so 3 elements minimum), you can construct a dataset for which any below-100% of the median of the dataset is not represented in the dataset.
The easiest example would be using "99% of the median" and [9.999, 10, 11]. Median is 10, 99% of the median is 9.9, the smallest sample is 9.999.
60% of the median income basically means "the lowest 50% income bracket should not have more than 40% deviation". Or rather; the lowest possible income is bigger than 60% of the lowest earner of the top 50% of society.
There is also the issue that even if all of the money were split between everyone--some people would spend all of theirs and some would save theirs. Wealth is accumulated money, not income.
You're being too generous because you're only considering 1st worlders. 71% of the world's population lives on less than $10/day. If we're going to try to flatten out quality of life among everyone then impoverished Americans are going to take a lifestyle cut.
We're not going to have humans flipping burgers in a few years. A lot of these low-wage, low-skill jobs are finally on the brink of being automated. There will be new opportunities to replace them, as there always are. I'm pretty optimistic about the future of the economy - we have a huge number of skill-demanding fields that are growing, and many of them are facing real difficulty, which is exactly what creates demand.
How many people will be employed by the companies that replace all these low-wage low-skilled jobs? What will those formerly low-wage low-skilled laborers do after they are replaced? Buy a college education? Learn robotics?
As those jobs are automated, who will patronize those businesses? eg what fraction of McDonalds customers are high-income high-skill laborers vs lower-wage low-skill?
Human cognitive abilities follow a normal distribution. Some low-skilled laborers never had an opportunity to reach their potential, others lack the capacity to perform higher skill jobs... and some people are incapable of even "low-skill" labor.
Is automation maintaining or reducing the number of jobs for less capable people? Are we slowly raising the unemployable-threshold?
Those are good questions. Our challenge becomes ensuring that people are capable. How many of those displaced workers are less capable because of something intrinsic (some mental defect or insufficiency), and how many just need to be trained? I'm not sure if we'll ever reach a point where the "average" person is unemployable, but we can imagine a future where that is the case. But there's such little genetic variation within humanity that it seems likely that our education system could be made much more rigorous and suitable to ensure that everyone comes out of it at a very high level of capability.
But no matter how you slice it, pay is a function of supply and demand. Nothing more, nothing less. Burger flipping is low-wage because everyone is willing to do it, and people will undercut each other to secure that they get the job over someone else. The changing economy may make all jobs more difficult, but there will still be jobs that the masses gravitate to, and those jobs will remain low-wage as a result.
Debunked by economists who are the joke of the Nobel laureates. Even the Peace prize is more respectable. 100 years in human history? Nothing. The Roman Empire took half a millennium to decay.
The Malthusian argument is a thermodynamic argument. If we grow without bound (either by number or per capita consumption) we will run out of resources like any other biological system.
The only thing that allows us to escape this is human's unique ability to transcend our biological nature - i.e. breed responsibly (Gd I hate that) and consume less.
Mainstream economics is enamored with boundless growth, therefore, we're on a crash course.
Right, because food today is more expensive than food yesterday, since we are growing so much outside our means, we are clearly consuming all the natural resources and devouring each other for that last piece of corn.
Human behavior is not thermodynamics. To the very least, the day were all the resources in the universe have been consumed by its living beings is so far away that it is absolutely irrelevant and inapplicable to our society.
Sorry, what's the point of the universe? We're bound to Earth by any rational understanding of physics and physiology.
"Right, because food today is more expensive than food yesterday" Love the sarcasm, not the shallow argument (I appreciate that food is, seemingly, cheaper than yesterday).
Human behavior is not thermodynamics. Agriculture is. Food is cheaper today because:
1) N2 fixation thanks to Dr. Haber
2) Large scale potash mining and shipping.
3) Unsustainable use of other necessary agricultural inputs
Point 1) is fairly stable in the medium term (i.e. my daughter's potential children's life span ~ next 100 years to 400 years) because energy is cheap and effectively getting cheaper. Population won't grow too fast as to run out of energy, if it did we're really f.ed, and global energy use has stabilized and might decline.
Point 2), however, is a nasty one. Run out of potash, then you run out of K and therefore food production above carrying capacity. You can turn to (say) oceans to mine K, but that's expensive.
I appreciate the econ argument that "you can't run out of resources because the price goes up until you don't want to use them" but that ultimately trash. You won't go hungry, because you might afford a doubling in price of your groceries. It's the Ethiopian kids whose lives balance everything out.
Point 3) Acquirers are running out so, for example, California's agricultural production is in peril.
See... thermo!
Are there alternatives that are more "sustainable"? Sure. But they all come with (an unknown to me) maximum carrying capacity.
As to human behavior not being modeled by thermo... that's irrelevant. People will shift preferences to eat lower quality, higher yield crops due to prices changes and all.
Of course those prices changes are (partly) due to... thermodynamics!
We could still give everyone guaranteed basic income for example and solve the problem that way. Not everyone needs to work to ensure as a society that everyone has a warm roof over their head and decently healthy food. It's just a matter of will.
That is not an example of anything - "We can't eliminate poverty! If we gave everyone a college education, some people would still be in poverty". There is no cause and effect.
Maybe the main crux is the definition of wealth. Flipping burgers and being college educated would be fine if one could still live a life that's measurably a fulfilling life.
The work they do is of low value because almost anybody can do it. Morally they may not deserve to be poor, but nobody is going to pay them a lot of money to perform that work.
That's not true. Burger flippers aren't low paid because it is easy, thry are low paid because the supply of people willing to do the work is too high. If other, better opportunities become available for a large number of those employees, wages will go up.
Look at Walmart, they aren't raising wages out of the goodness of their hearts, they need to raise wages to keep good employees. (and probably a little PR and politics too)
Minimum wage only really encourages businesses to hire fewer people and train those fewer people to do more and be more productive, if not to raise prices. There are many small bookstores and mom-and-pop stores that are going to be closed when the minimum wage is raised because they literally can’t raise prices any more or hire fewer people.
That’s why in some other countries, instead of a minimum wage, which is the government forcing businesses to pay a certain wage, the government itself makes up the difference between the actual wage and a desired wage. So if the government decides that everyone should earn at least $15/h but the market price for flipping burgers is only $10/h, the government itself will provide the additional $5/h. This effectively raises the standard of living without pressuring businesses and also without the adverse effects like pushing up prices or creating more unemployment.
To some degree there will be cases like that, but that is not really what happens on a macro level though. In aggregate, there tends to be no statistical correlation between the minimum wage level and employment levels. Companies try to be efficient, so they try not to have any more or less people than they need (based mostly on demand). The desire to pay as few people to do as much work as possible always exists. Higher minimum wages may put some extra emphasis on this, but it's likely that the extra demand from consumers having more income balances this out.
What's your source for this? If there's no statistical correlation between the minimum wage and the unemployment rate (and I thought I had read otherwise) then I suspect the statistics aren't telling the whole story.
Your explanation of what's going on at the micro level contradicts my experience as a business owner who's been signing paychecks for many years. All businesses have inefficiencies, and in general the larger the check, the more scrutiny the expense will receive. Internally this manifests as having higher expectations for a higher paid employee, and prioritizing automation, offshoring, or other business decisions when labor costs get too high. Externally, when we expand our relationship with a client, we fully expect that it will receive more scrutiny from various stakeholders at the company simply because the check getting written to us is bigger, even if we deliver proportionately more value.
The government in the US already subsidizes businesses that can’t or won’t pay a living wage - with food stamps and such for their workers. Perhaps having government make up the difference in pay, as you say they do in other countries, would be better.
Depends on one's definition of "livable wage." Minimum wage and "decent standard of living" are often conflated but minimum wage was not imposed and has never been intended to provide that. It's always been a wage that was at or slightly above the federal poverty line.
The lowest minimum wage I remember hearing about as a kid was $1.50/hr. I thought that sounded like a lot of money at the time, but I probably was not even 10 years old.
That would have been in the first half of the 1970's when the federal poverty line was around $2,500. So working full time, you'd make $3,000 or about 120% of the poverty level.
Today, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour and the poverty level (2016) is $12,200. So still, a full-time minimum wage worker earns nearly 120% of the poverty level.
You could call it corporate welfare. Or you could consider the 3 to 4% profit margins these companies have and assume that they might not sustain that number of employees at a higher wage.
This comment implies that these companies going out of business would be a bad thing. In the short term, definitely.
But jobs are just means to an end for most people. Why can't government aim to simply provide those ends?
The obvious counterargument is that the free market is more efficient. But the US government has shown itself to be very capable in providing some services to the entire country. The military has done a great job keep the country safe. There just doesn't seem to be the willpower to create the navy/army/airforce of food, shelter, healthcare and education.
I guess the issue is that it's hard to get elected if you promise to make things better 20 years from now.
Hilarious that you use the word "efficient" and then in the next sentence make the claim that the US military has done a great job at keeping the country safe. Yes, they do a good job. But the US military is one of the most bloated, over-funded organizations in human history.
I'd like to stretch some ideas for the sake of exploration. Curious to hear what you think:
I think you could interpret the US military's success despite "waste" to mean that a federal government can get away with a lot of inefficiency and still beat the "free market."
History already showed us what private military is like. I believe it's essentially feudalism and warlords. I.e. true poverty for 90% of the population. A powerful federal millitary that follows the laws of democratically elected officials gives people in the US historically unprecedented safety.
It's not clear to me why the federal government couldn't build a military-like organizations for addressing food, shelter, health care, and education.
The fundamental issue seems to be that the free market is the best means for deciding resource allocation towards those other goals. So why not simply implement UBI pegged to prices in LCOL areas?
It's not really success despite waste. It's one of the principal factor's bankrupting the nation. Apply that to other major issues as you listed and we are bankrupt even faster.
Because when you raise minimum wage, that means employers of the minimum wage earners need to push up their prices so that they're still making the same profits. (Actually, the same is not good enough, the profits need to exceed the previous years). The price of everything ends up inflating and minimum wage earners end up getting less for their money, despite having "more of it".
That would only be true if the goods minimum wage workers produce are being bought only by minimum wage workers. In reality the price also goes up for incomes above minimum wage so in a sense raising the minimum wage is a transfer of money from higher earners to lower earners.
In reality what happens, is those jobs go away (jobs like retail) and they are replaced with slightly higher paying jobs (like Amazon warehouse worker) except at a rate of about 1 new job for every 10 previous jobs.
Anytime you artificially set price floors and ceilings you have unintended consequences. Why put the burden on private businesses?
There is a better answer - keep the minimum wage where it is until it becomes meaningless because of inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit and make it easier for employers to pass it on to workers each month. They already take out taxes, it shouldn't be hard to do the opposite.
The EITC has historically been supported by both Republican and Democratic presidents.
I've been watching a lot of Jordan Peterson lately, and your story sounds exactly like part a lecture he'd give. It's sad that you figured it out the hard way.
You've heard the saying, give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime?
It's kind of like that. I coasted through most of my 20s, wasted a lot of time. I decided some years ago that I wanted to work as a dev, so I studied for a couple years and made it happen. But I have a large number of friends from early 20s to 40 (many of whom come from middle or upper-middle class families) that are perfectly happy coasting through life - they work in restaurants, bike shops, strip clubs, or take bouts of unemployment while on food stamps, etc. These are the urban equivalent of the trope of coal miners that refuse to learn new skills. Why are they like this? Because they are comfortable. You can live and be perfectly happily in a major city on 25k/year, living with roommates and on/off government assistance (though you'll never save money or advance). I'd raise the minimum wage significantly to help battle some of this (food stamps or housing assistance for people that work is corporate welfare in my eyes). But much change must come from within, and we have to find a way to motivate people.
So yes, help the poor - by providing education, healthcare, and time and opportunity to learn new skills when they are unemployed. But everything should be designed to encourage people to learn and contribute productively to society. No, it's not easy to make money, no, it's REALLY not easy to become comfortable, and yes, it's really, really difficult to become wealthy for 99% of people. But it's everyone's responsibility to try to contribute to society and we owe it to ourselves to strive for more.
"I think comments like these are more likely propaganda than real experiences."
You would be incorrect. I'm right here, a real person, with real experiences.
"You read the parent comment and think the poor and just lazy and all your have to do is work yourself a slave and suck corporate dick."
I assume your trying to say "the poor `are` just lazy" and that wasn't what I said or was trying to say.
To the contrary, I think it's much harder to dig yourself out of a hole once your in it. In my case, during that period, I went from working in a high-rise to applying at Jack-in-the-Box because it was the only thing within walking distance and I couldn't even get that job.
I for one got lucky and found some opportunity, but that wasn't my point. My point was that, for me, hitting rock bottom, having a minimal safety net (i.e. not sleeping outdoors), was just enough for me to change my life perspective.
If you want to talk about your experiences or opinions, go for it, but don't dismiss mine as "propaganda".
I'm not so sure, it is just that this is HN and that is the one place you will find people for which the "American Dream" did actually work or it is actually looking good.
Really? I know lots of people that work hard and are doing pretty good. Not rich, but doing ok.
I also know people who are doing poorly and a good deal of them (not all!) are that way through poor choices (and would admit it).
Of course I also know people who are doing poorly through no fault of their (poor health, caretaker burden, etc). For those folks I'm glad we social programs to help them.
It never really did, nor was it ever intended to do that. It's always been a wage that was at or slightly above the federal poverty line.
The lowest minimum wage I remember hearing about as a kid was $1.50/hr. I thought that sounded like a lot of money at the time, but I probably was not even 10 years old.
That would have been in the first half of the 1970's when the federal poverty line was around $2,500. So working full time, you'd make $3,000 or about 120% of the poverty level.
Today, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour and the poverty level (2016) is $12,200. So still, a full-time minimum wage worker earns nearly 120% of the poverty level.
> I think comments like these are more likely propaganda than real experiences.
So you are calling redm a liar. Do you have anything to back up that accusation? Or are you calling them a liar purely because it suits your poorly-constructed narrative?
> When we all know statistically America is worse than ever before.
"We all know..." is false. What you mean is probably more along the lines of "This is what I think, without having done any research to support my wild claim."
> You read the parent comment and think the poor and just lazy
Where did the GP call the poor lazy?
> and all your have to do is work yourself a slave and suck corporate dick.
See above.
> Nope, it's always the corporate stooge.
Why are you accusing redm of being a 'corporate stooge'?
We've been helping the poor for a long long time and we still have them. Either we are doing the wrong things (though we keep doing them, and asking for more of the same) or it's evidence that kind of help actually incentivizes what it's ostensibly trying to eradicate.
On the flip side, I have never experienced poverty, and don't have the motivation of "looking into oblivion" to push me into another dead-end job.
But does that mean I deserve that experience? Should I be put in a situation where I have to fight to survive? I think that is unreasonable.
There exist better motivations. I am capable of work that is much more attractive to me than entry-level labor jobs. The idea that I am less valuable as a person because I am dependent; or that I ought to be compelled by my social situation to do stressful unfulfilling work does not sit well with me. That is where I strongly disagree with Sen. Hatch.
We are capable as a society of helping more than the most destitute. We should promote individual liberty, so that people can do work they are passionate about. I don't believe that those living on welfare should be compelled to do work that they have no desire to do. We should instead work to provide them opportunity and counsel so that they can find their passion and follow it.
Taxation is theft, but the current Republican party (including Sen. Hatch) has used that as an excuse to push an agenda that works against those who are barely getting by, while working for those who have inherited obscene amounts of wealth. That, in my opinion, is worse than the theft itself.
> Taxation is theft, but the current Republican party (including Sen. Hatch) has used that as an excuse to push an agenda that works against those who are barely getting by, while working for those who have inherited obscene amounts of wealth. That, in my opinion, is worse than the theft itself.
I don't understand how you can hold this view in light of what you said before that paragraph. How do you suppose we come up with creative solutions to social problems, and of helping the destitute and others, without any wealth or income? Our taxes are what fund those programs.
I believe taxation is theft, but that that fact is no excuse for allocating spending of tax dollars unwisely.
What the Republican Party, and many Libertarians seem to think is that because taxation is theft, anything that depends on taxation is immoral, and therefore taxes are free to be allocated immorally. That conclusion is fallacious, absurd, and malicious.
You can disagree with me on the fine point of taxes being immoral in the first place, but that is precisely not my point.
> I believe taxation is theft, but that that fact is no excuse for allocating spending of tax dollars unwisely.
So your position is: Oh its stealing money, but lets spend the stolen money better?
> What the Republican Party, and many Libertarians seem to think is that because taxation is theft, anything that depends on taxation is immoral, and therefore taxes are free to be allocated immorally. That conclusion is fallacious, absurd, and malicious.
No they don't. Its a talking point that they've conveniently latched on to since you need to have a reason for doing the terrible things that they do without admitting it explicitly. I'll give them credit for exploiting the worst parts of individualism in the US to convince many (seemingly you included) of the "evil of taxation and government". But it is not an ideology that they believe in. Nor, I will point out, are any of their solutions backed by any kind of experience or evidence.
> So your position is: Oh its stealing money, but lets spend the stolen money better?
So your position is: If I find the source (taxation) to be unethical, I am not allowed to have any opinion on spending?
My point is that that is absurd.
> But it is not an ideology that they believe in
That is my point: It's a vain representation of ideology that is used as an excuse. You don't need to fight the ideology itself to understand that.
Rather than freaking out every time you read the phase "taxation is theft", maybe you could actually read what I am saying, and understand that we are in violent agreement on every other point.
I love how when this comes up, it's people either saying "Here was my experience when I was poor in the past." or "Here is what I think about economics or the wording of this article."
Don't get me wrong, I know what website I'm on.
But in all seriousness, is there room for currently poor people in this discussion?
I was homeless for nearly 6 years. I got off the street last September. I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st.
I fairly frequently give my opinions on HN about poverty, homelessness, housing, women's issues and the negative impact being female has on my earned income.
I try to be judicious and not do it too often. Testifying from firsthand experience often turns into a pile on of people pretending to care and pretending to want to help while mostly virtue signaling, doing nothing for me and dragging my name through the mud by insinuating that I somehow must have made poor choices and it must be all my fault, never mind the larger societal forces under discussion.
I often worry that if I speak up too much, I will eventually be banned for disruptive behavior, never mind that I feel that a lot of the problem behaviors are due to how other people choose to react to me. When enough people pile on with problematic replies I can eventually get frustrated and lose my cool and then I feel like that will all be blamed on me and an excuse to say I am just badly behaved. I get a lot of downvotes and flags when I finally lose my cool. This tends to not happen to people talking at me like I am not really a victim of circumstances, I just am stupid, incompetent and not trying hard enough.
I try to then give it a rest for a while and avoid such topics because I would prefer to not wind up rate limited, banned or otherwise penalized for daring to be the token poor person giving my two cents. Privileged people tend to have no idea how to help me. They tend to say really shitty things to me. They often want me to shut up because I make them uncomfortable.
I am pretty thick skinned, well educated and come from a much more privileged background than I realized for most of my life. Most poor people are not going to stick their neck out like that. They are too vulnerable and can't afford more trouble and are very well aware that expecting rich people to be genuinely respectful and caring towards them is simply a bridge too far.
It generally works better overall for the formerly poor to try to cast a little light on such subjects. It is much less of a shitshow.
Thank you for sharing your views on poverty. While HN is primarily about programming / tech, there is room for talk about society, etc. I don't agree with your points about being rate limited / banned, all views are valued here if they're inherently non-inflamatory.
Edit: Your Karma given your account is only 3 days old is quite contradicting of your views of HN
I have been here 8.5 years. I just recently changed my name cuz reasons.
Overall, I get pretty well received. That doesn't mean I don't stress about it, etc. I am at times characterized by commenters as just having a chip on my shoulder about one thing or another and simply harping on it. So it isn't just me being paranoid. My concerns are based on observations of how others perceive me at times.
To be clear, it is not a criticism of the mods. They have been incredible. But I have been thrown off (or run off) of other sites. It would just be easier to remove me than to tell everyone else they need to figure out how to behave better towards me.
FWIW, I've been on the site a long time, and have seen parent commenter['s original account] get flamed (and presumably, nope out of those threads) for offering up her (inherently non-inflammatory) opinions / experiences.
Your posts always break my heart because, as you know, we share similar problems and needs and both cling to the same fraying thread. I am going to make my "hail mary" AskHN post today or tomorrow (keep editing and editing) and hope you might find something to cling to as well if people respond.
> I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st.
Are you OK? Do you need some financial support? Can you afford to eat? I can offer to buy food and have it delivered to you, or a near by shop (or something) if need be.
This is the kind of comment I really hate seeing. It is almost always virtue signaling. People genuinely looking to help have zero problem finding my PayPal account or emailing me. The people who publicly offer assistance usually wind up really pissed off at me if I rudely try to take them up on it. It is gauche of me to take them seriously. They were just trying to look good in public for free. I am supposed to have too much shame or something to say "Yes, please." It also just puts me in an incredibly awkward position.
I find the entire thing annoying in the extreme because I have a Patreon account to help fund my blogging and I completely suck at promoting that. I also do freelance writing and resume editing and I can't get traction with that.
I sincerely appreciate it anytime anyone actually kicks a few bucks my way when I am in crisis. But I would much prefer that people take me seriously, fund my Patreon and/or hire me for paid writing so that bitching about my shit life on the internet can stop being one of my more lucrative skills.
> I find the entire thing annoying in the extreme because I have a Patreon account to help fund my blogging and I completely suck at promoting that.
> I sincerely appreciate it anytime anyone actually kicks a few bucks my way when I am in crisis. But I would much prefer that people take me seriously, fund my Patreon and/or hire me for paid writing so that bitching about my shit life on the internet can stop being one of my more lucrative skills.
I have no idea who you are. I've never heard of you. I've never seen your blog, YouTube channel, Twitch streaming account, or whatever else it is you have. I didn't read your profile or historical comments here in Hacker News to try and track you down or identify you because...
> People genuinely looking to help have zero problem finding my PayPal account or emailing me.
... I'm not going to run around the Internet looking for you.
I think I was well within my rights to offer you assistance using the most direct communication means that was available to me at the time of offering it: the comment box directly under your post. I made a safe assumption, in my opinion, that this would (and it did) reach you directly and now I'm being hosed down in public for trying to care about another human being.
I don't care about magical karma points. I'm 33 years old: I don't have the time, energy or the f--ks to give with regards to some magical Internet points that amount to sweet F/A.
I'm being sincere in my offer and it still stands. I'll email you to get further details from you about how you might want the money, if any, being sent.
Thank you for your sincerity and your email. I have already replied to your email. I apologize for you being the one who took it in the face here, but it is a kind of comment I absolutely do not want to see more of on the site for a long list of reasons.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." It isn't enough to mean well. Some ways of handling things simply do not work well.
The anger comes from, in personal experience, being taken out of society by things outside of your control, and whenever you ask for help being treated like a lazy beggar who has a lot of nerve even asking to survive. It comes from seeing the same "if I can help let me know" responses over and over that are really like "lets get lunch" statements and never result in actual help. Then when you get more depressed and upset that you can't get help people get defensive and dump their resentment or guilt on you more. It's a long spiral that is impossible to get out of often. Getting to the point you need help can happen to anyone...but most people need to pretend it can't and thus blame the victim and that victim's natural reactions to being crushed by life.
Man come on. I was explaining why those who suffer long term get bitter and depressed. I used to be healthy and happy and helped others for a living and personally. I was an empathetic person even then and thought I understood how people would respond, but until I lived the need I really didn't. It's not cynicism it's experience and it explains how people get grumpy and hopeless. Ask anyone who has suffered long term and they will tell you MOST people simply aren't willing to try to understand, and to truly help others. That's not a personal insult to you or those who would. When someone in pain lashes out because of their overwhelming experiences it's never about YOU but rather their fear and helplessness. The way you punched back saying "fine be a miserable person then" comes from you feeling slighted and wanting to lash out in that same way so it should be something you can empathize with.
I only want people to see the human in the suffering. The helpers are human too but are in a position of power and also have a more stable life and ability to cope. When I was working and being yelled at and unappreciated by people in severe distress I worked to never take it personally and did my very best for them. It was never about me..they had simply lost their ability to cope and needed help back to normality. It's terrifying to think about but can happen to anyone, any time.
I just wanted to answer the "why angry" question above. I have a LOT of relevant experience about this issue as both a provider and a victim. I just wanted to share that experience and explain the common behaviors. I don't want conflict and will back away and apologize if I offended you. I didn't downvote you above either in case that's added to it. I can't downvote at all anyway due to my low karma.
How about offering to help someone and then people acting like you are a bad person? How about that?
I've got nothing for or against either poster, but so many assumptions were made about someone who may have been just trying to help. Why is that fair? Why try to help anyone if you're gonna get treated like that?
I did not make assumptions about them. I talked about my experience with how this typically goes and the fact that I find this sort of comment very problematic.
It puts me in an incredibly awkward position because there is absolutely no good way for me to respond to it. If I publicly say yes and they actually help, there is a danger that this will become a running theme on the site. This would be a serious problem for me and for the moderators.
It's an inherently disrespectful way to handle the problem. The lack of real respect is one of the things that keeps certain classes of people trapped in poverty.
I have been commenting on my poverty on this site for years. I get lots of compliments on my writing here. I also get consistently told that trying to make a middle class income from my writing is a batshit insane deluded unrealistic desire.
If people genuinely respected me and genuinely cared, they could help me figure out how to turn my writing skill into a middle class income. I am not asking for charity here. I am asking to be taken seriously as someone who has a valuable skill that I would like to make a career out of. I can get no traction on finding a means to turn that into a middle class income. I have zero desire for my participation here to turn into some circus of me begging for money publicly. I see that as counter to my goal to get taken seriously and establish a career.
I also see that as a development that the mods would be fools to not ban me over. I have spent time as a moderator. That's a shitshow I would not tolerate in a community under my care.
> If people genuinely respected me and genuinely cared, they could help me figure out how to turn my writing skill into a middle class income.
Consider video. It's out pacing written material by a long shot and fast becoming how people consume knowledge. Not everyone is suited for it, but it's worth considering. The systems in place for publishing video content are also better and have a much bigger reach (without any work)
Thank you. And thank you for your Patreon pledge. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you genuinely trying to do the right thing under difficult circumstances.
You have to realize it's not about YOU and not make it an ego thing where you get offended at a suffering person's reactions. People in need are ignored, blamed and screwed with constantly and it's a normal reaction to be depressed, angry and defensive about it. But instead of having that empathy, most people react with a "Well who do you think you are? Screw you then I was trying to HELP!" and make it all about themselves. It's like people who get angry at someone in an emergency who is panicking or in pain. Yelling at them as if they are being a jerk to make the rescuer/provider's life difficult. I saw it a lot in my previous work. If you want to help others effectively you cannot make it about you and have to approach things outside your ego and gain the trust. Most people can' be bothered.
Open discussion will not necessarily reinforce anything, people have the ability to draw their own conclusions. Personally I would rather that OP stated their opinion explicitly.
Also I actually don't know what the stereotype was that was being implied.
Thank you for asking more explanations so nicely, and sorry for being so cryptic.
I think that welfare in the US is about philanthropy, charity and "good will", and not about "social rights" as in Europe.
And that comment showed exactly that attitude: the guy is kinda confused on why that woman refuses his "good will". She is asking for rights, he is offering "good will".
In my opinion, her answer created a cognitive dissonance in his mind, and that's why he answers back so angrily. I find that attitude to social welfare super American.
I think that the American approach to welfare has ethical and practical limits. Welfare based on philanthropy and good will is not an efficient welfare: it won’t change much. It also adds a moral dimension that (imho) shouldn't be there…
I really try hard not to sound cynical or jaded as that puts people off even more, but it's so difficult as I have had similar experiences with "offers of help" of all sorts. Nobody ever actually follows through. Twice in the last 2 years people have dragged my hope for work out over many months or years with no intention of ever doing anything. It always follows the same script and has made me quite hopeless.
More importantly, people like us need sustainable situations, not a wad of cash that will be gone with next month's expenses and leave us right back where we were. We need to be helped get a base under our feet to grow from as the muddy pit we live in just keeps collapsing, we also need to "learn how to fish" as the saying goes and be reintegrated into the whole. Not have scraps of fish thrown at us, no matter how well meaning the thrower is.
Yes, the public offers to help me eat when I am flat broke drive me crazy because when I talk about being unable to make adequate income as a writer, that gets dismissed as "meh, sucks to be you." People use ad blocker, tell me Patreon is charity and expect good content to be free. Then I get pity money* once in a while when things are really bad.
And it's like, hello? 2+2=4. Can you not see how these issues are related? Geez.
* My apologies to the generous souls who have compassionately given me money at times so I could eat. But the reality is I would not need such gifts if I had enough regular income, but all efforts to establish an earned income fall on deaf ears.
Not saying you are or not but using the fact that one is poor cannot be used as a vehicle to receive more attention, that does not make you privileged or entitled to having a positive reception of your opinions.
Critical thinking is paramount to any argument to be made, if an argument is weak or else lacks fundamental building blocks required for reasoning through it to a conclusion, no amount of "I've been there take my word" should give it any weight.
If we're doing social experiments and not reason-based arguments then perhaps there is room for evidence-based arguments, but this forum not being such scientific lab I hesitate to accept such arguments.
using the fact that one is poor cannot be used as a vehicle to receive more attention, that does not make you privileged or entitled to having a positive reception of your opinions.
I often get insane amounts of attention. This has long been true and I have spent many years trying to figure out how to open my mouth in public without it being a train wreck waiting to happen.
Part of the problem is that when someone is a demographic outlier or otherwise special case, other people give it a great deal of attention. Then that gets interpreted as the person intentionally derailing the discussion, making it about them, etc.
It is really common for people to completely ignore whatever point I am trying to make so they can talk about me and for me to wind up trying hard to combat that and possibly just finally say "I'm done here" and stop replying. When I do that, the people focusing on me swear it is all my fault, I was going out of my way to make it about me, etc.
I post as openly female here. It is common for that fact to become the focus of discussion and I am often told that if I did not want people to talk about it, I should not have mentioned my gender at all. The burden winds up being hung on me to anticipate the reactions of everyone else and to go out of my way to avoid mentioning anything that might get weird reactions.
It is an excessive and unrealistic burden to hang on me and it is the essence of sexism, classism, etc.
I understand your view on critical thinking, and I am intentionally trying to foster that by encouraging other stakeholders to speak up. Namely, us Poors!
In this case, what speech is privileged over the rest? I read the article, her post, your post, and so on. I will continue to do so.
If your issue is with tone, great! Tone is an important discussion to have!
I usually just skim HN for links, but I this article and had to make an account. I've been making about 15k a year about the last five years. I live in a major metropolitan area. The section I live in is finally getting hit hard and fast with gentrification, and it's terrifying. Right now I can ride a bike to work, but if I'm forced to move somewhere that I have to pay to commute, my job won't even make financial sense anymore. I don't see anyway out.
I did a bachelors in a social science at a cheap non-elite state school, so most people will say I deserve a life of crushing poverty. I suppose that's possible. I did try to make myself relevant to the economy by doing a coding bootcamp, and an associates in design, and put apps into the iOS and Android appstores. Of course I would have rather done a masters, but that is about as realistic as buying a house at this point.
Everyone says they can't find programmers, but I have yet to see one job that I meet the on-paper requirements to even apply to, and I'm willing to relocate anywhere in the country (obviously I can't afford property or a family) Even if I did get an interview I'm sure I won't do well answering trick questions about data structures on a white board anyways.
Other than the constant stress, being impoverished for so long has definitely given me a negative attitude. I know, you guys went through the same thing that time you had to sleep on your buddies couch after you finished your MBA at Stanford and Goldman Sachs didn't have an opening, but for some reason I'm just not handling it as well.
Anyway, I'm just going to keep writing apps and pushing them out to the appstore, and maybe one day one of them will make enough money to poke my head out above the poverty level. See you then.
Finding a job as a junior iOS dev is so hard right now. I would look for an entry-level iOS QA Automation Engineer position, or SDET if they use that title instead, even though I think the positions are usually distinct. You will still be using Xcode and writing Objective C/Swift, even if you're not making contributions to the source itself.
It's extremely difficult to fill those positions because people looking for their first tech job don't want to start off in QA, and they'd rather just be unemployed for months or years instead. There's not enough experienced people to go around if you don't want to overpay significantly to poach them.
They pay very well, easily on par with developer positions in many cases. Average where I live for entry level seems to be over $70k, and I've seen postings for $200k+ for people with experience.
You could probably spend a week or two messing around with UI Automation and XCTest (if you don't already use them) and be more qualified than most of the people applying to those positions with prior QA experience but no prior iOS experience.
Thank you for sharing! I ABSOLUTELY know what it's like to have people believe that you deserve poverty. Sometimes when I get really depressed, I feel that way toward myself. The idea of reduced inherent personal value seeps into everything.
Your point about the difference between being on a couch after a high value MBA vs being on the couch --full stop, end of sentence-- being a total chasm is totally correct.
I think that it is interesting that another poster posited that poverty is truly informed by hopelessness, with the implication that HN readers can't be hopeless. The idea that the concept of poverty is definable only by those far enough away from it to say "That is another group of people than I am in." is problematic in my view.
One option is considering moving. Regardless of your eng. skills if you are able to discuss requirements and communicate well you would be an asset for any smaller consulting company in eastern europe.
And to do that, they would need immediate stable income, or enough capital to live on until they found it. Probably both.
That is the whole point: no one in this situation has either of these things. That is the group of people Sen. Hatch thinks does not deserve financial help.
After reading through (most of) the comments here, I am genuinely curious what we can do as individuals to help. It is pretty clear that the gov isn't too keen on helping (don't want to get into politics - just one look at the budget cuts is enough to prove this point).
So is there anything we can do? Protesting, running for public office etc makes the most sense but I am not built for it. What is the second best thing that an individual with a few dollars and few hours a week to spare do to help?
Honestly, I see the biggest problem is that there isn't a clear solution.
We have a culture that is trained against this group of people; trained against helping each other succeed, against promoting others' individual liberty. I don't have a one-size-fits-all solution, and that seems to be the only kind this culture will accept.
I think an important first step is empathy: understand how people feel stuck and why. Understand that the bare necessities are not enough. Understand the heightened stress that comes with this situation: inability to take risks, inability to recover from failed ventures, etc.
The next step is sympathy. Sympathy is closely related to empathy, but there is an important distinction: the difference between comprehension and understanding.
After that, I really don't know. I haven't ever been in a situation where I have the capital to significantly change another person's situation. Because I have never had the perspective, I don't see a solution. That is probably the most frustrating part of the problem: not knowing how someone can help you.
Sure, I could beg for food and rent, but that wouldn't be enough to be independent. In our society, it's difficult to ask for even the bare necessities, let alone ask for things like a car, enough capital to move to the city, out of state, or even out of country.
Some see debt as a solution: Get a student loan and an education, and then get into a better situation. But that assumes that college education is well suited for everyone, which is simply untrue. Loans require judgment by lenders; and if the path that you are most passionate about does not explicitly follow the "normal" routine - school, internship, temp job, career, etc. - those who lend money are likely to deny you your dreams.
The most frustrating thing to me is that because I don't have a perfect solution, the entire subject gets dropped. Solutions are found with effort and progress, not simply stumbled upon.
I get what you are saying and I feel the same way. But can't we at least toss some ideas around and see what comes of it? After all, for those in the US, all it takes from doing okay to bad situation is just one illness, hospital bills can screw someone's life faster than anything else. These things can happen to anyone.
Contribute or set up non profits to genuinely help people find self sustaining careers.
I’ve for long pondered how I could set up a 100 studio apartment complex with some counselors, training materials, and a supportive non profit. It seems doable.
One obviously wouldn't move before securing a position. For a consulting company like that having a native speaker interacting with clients can mean very tangible difference in hourly rate so should not be hard to find a place.
I feel like I always see this when it comes to breaking into mobile apps. Most mobile apps are stupid simple and they simply don't require large teams.
My advice is to pick a niche other than the one everyone and their mom is doing.
As a followup, I am a Real Poor! I am self taught, underemployed (I make less than $200 per month in the USA), and have pretty much been the poorest person in the room for my whole life.
I eat exclusively off of foodstamps. I am uninsured and partially disabled. I have been able to pay rent for the past few months by working off the books for a couple places, and cashing in on a very limited amount of goodwill that I accumulated in my youth. I have no reason to believe that this will last into the future, or even rent for March.
1. This is kind of open ended, so I'll give it a shot.
Both of my parents were janitors. I went to a private school in middle school on a work scholarship (we had to drive an hour each way, open and close the school every day). I dropped out of high school and have a few community college credits.
2. PTSD unrelated to anything I would care to discuss on HN.
3. ?
4. No. I have applied multiple times over the past six years, but long periods of being uninsured makes people wary of making any decision based off of medical data.
5. When I was 14, I founded and ran a hosting company, so I learned how to use PuTTY, maintain PHP installations, run cPanel, etc. I guess you can say I am "Okay with computers"
6. I have worked in construction, customer service, and sales across a few different industries, but all for very short periods of time. This relates to my disability.
7. I do have a small group of friends that I am very thankful for, but not to the extent that it doesn't scare me when it is snowing outside.
8. I would love to know how my answer to this matters to your estimation.
If anything, I find that successful people are culturally un-welcome in the conversation today. It's considered presumptive or 'privileged' to give advice on how to be self-reliant and grow wealth.
Culturally this is happening in a number of areas. Victimhood has become such a powerful status to claim that we increasingly refuse to listen to so-called 'privileged' voice, regardless of how solid their advice may be.
Not seeing the comment you're referring to. But my point is that a broader cultural phenomenon is occurring where successful folks are demonized and individual accomplishments are considered more a function of one's 'privilege' than hard work.
Hard work is one of those things that's necessary, but not sufficient, so it all but begs for survivor bias. It may well have been the case in the past, when the economy was less abstract, that hard work could translate directly into material necessities (provided you were privileged to own land!) As far as I can tell, that's simply not the case in a society like this one.
I don't understand how that's not the case today. I grant you that there are a small percentage of folks who in such a disadvantaged position where this wouldn't be possible, but a lot more could follow this advice and get ahead: learn how to code. That could take a number of forms, whether it's online training, coding bootcamps (some of which are free until you land a job), or studying computer science in college / community college.
Yes, it's not just because people are at the moment going through a problem that they know how to solve it. It's one thing to be in a bad situation, how it is and so on, another is to know how to get out of it.
Wealthy people hold almost all of the power in America and the cultural reaction is to make sure other voices can be heard. I find that praiseworthy rather than something to disparage. I've known many wealthy people and many (not all) have been completely unable to comprehend the struggles poorer people deal with daily. Likewise, many of the poorer people I have known can't comprehend the lifestyle differences that come with being wealthy. My wife's mother, for instance, gives away all of her social security and alimony payments to struggling friends and family every month because her religion encourages it and she feels she is given too much in the first place. Her bank account is empty at the end of every month. My wife's nephew just graduated high school and also just had a baby with his girlfriend. He's working under the table and has no protections if his employer decides to stiff him, which has already happened multiple times on this job alone. He stays because he needs the money and is worried he wouldn't find another job soon enough if he left. He recently offered to get a payday loan to pay back her mother for some money she had loaned him for boots when she ended up being short on a utility bill. Fortunately he decided not to but no public high school in that area offers any kind of financial education course to tell him how bad of an idea those are.
My wife's brother drives all over the state looking for work, then once he finds a job he has to expect be laid off any day. On a recent job one of his team members stole something and didn't confess so the foreman fired the whole team. He pays child support for kids he doesn't see often and getting laid off can set him back months.
I have cousins who made dumb decisions when young and now have criminal records. A childhood friend reached out to me asking for money because his wife became addicted to heroin, ruined him financially and emotionally, and left him for another guy, taking his daughter with her. He had to spend a ton of money he didn't have on the court battle to get his daughter back from his heroin-addicted wife. Some of my best friends in high school were gifted but had great difficulty focusing on schoolwork and ended up coping with drug cocktails and are now working part time minimum wage jobs. I also know some dumb people who simply made bad choices and ended up putting themselves in holes they can't dig themselves out of. And they aren't even minorities, which are so statistically differentiated from white communities that when I build market models I have to remove ethnicity as an explanatory factor because it predicts nearly everything on its own and I don't want to reinforce stereotypes or abstracted discrimination among my customers.
On the other side, I know a wealthy international businessman who takes risks that would land anyone else in jail, like speeding around the city while driving drunk/high and crashing into a parked car. He broke his neck doing that but still drives drunk. For my wife's family that would have become a life crushing healthcare debt and at minimum a significant amount of time off work if not a life of disability, but for him it was a nuisance. He pays his workers under the table and his daughter just won a medal in the winter Olympics.
I work with several wealthy people who are working solely to make more money or have something to do. That's great but none of them have no understanding of the life of a poor person in this country, and they make assetions on how things should work based on how it impacts them and based on opinions they've heard from even wealthier people. I am related to people who have worked hard to become wealthy, and that is again great but now they claim anyone who is poor is lazy when that is not the case. They donate to causes that espouse the same.
I work in the real estate space so I also encounter a lot of lazy wealthy people who don't want to do any work but feel entitled to money because a piece of paper says they own a property. Legally and through market forces they usually are though they usually don't add any real value to society.
I've personally experienced both sides and my opinion is the poor need more help, whether that means education, healthcare, legal expenses, or just a voice in discussion. Successful people have their voice and are capable of amplifying it to the point where it reaches every voter in the US with little effort. The stories of millions of poor and working class are lost in the noise every day. It's not victimhood to describe your problems and explain why a certain ideology or policy will impact your life negatively. The wealthy in this country so often overlook real issues at lower levels that generally they will impact the lives of the poor whether they intend it or not. People are resilient, adaptable, and hard-working but sometimes they have a boot on their head keeping them dow and need help getting it off.
Also personally, I feel fortunate to have have lived and worked among many income classes in my life. I'm young, smart, hungry, skilled and effective so there is a high probability that I'll never have to worry about money again. I feel obliged to do what I can to change the balance of wealthy in this country to something that reduces suffering on a broad scale. I am working to get to the point where I can do that full time.
United States has become a government of corporations, by corporations and they have modeled the country after their image. I think we might have to turn to other organizations for solutions. I'm from Utah, the LDS Church (Mormons) for example have a whole welfare program (that works) for anyone who needs help (no need to be a member or religious). Just walk into any local church, ask to see the bishop and tell him you need help. The bishop can hand you money (no joke), provide housing options, food, jobs, medical care, etc. No strings attached.
In most societies being poor is shameful, asking for help is twice as shameful. Even if someone that is poor and read your comment will most likely post an answer.
When poor people get things for "free" (like charity, I hate charity) they actually pay with pride and dignity.
Depends on the form of charity (and that includes government assistance).
Give me basic income, and I will feel no loss of dignity.
Make me stand in a line for a few hours (what's the problem wasting my time, if I am unemployed anyway, right?), fill out a ton of paperwork, send me back to collect signatures from my former employers that I really did work for them three years ago (because everyone deserves to be told that I have a problem now, especially my former employers), and so on... then I will consider not eating for a few weeks a more dignified option.
Definitely, this said I won't call basic income charity. The difference is that charity is not a right but BI is. The same way when big corporations receive millions and millions of dollars in government subsidies they don't "feel" it as charity.
Without going into too much detail: I am exactly one semester away from a degree in the natural sciences but can no longer afford to attend classes - I am a single father with 3 children (two of which live with me) and I pay child support every month to my ex-wife who makes ~$80K per annum. I played her way through graduate school but she left and we divorced very soon after she finished school.
I am almost 40 years old and I have been looking for a steady job for months...but imagine trying to convince someone to hire you for a job with the schedule restrictions that come with having multiple children in a lackluster economy.
I could go on but the message here is simply that poverty can easily be a self-perpetuating condition that becomes extraordinarily difficult to extract oneself from. It often seems like I am caught between multiple Catch-22 situations like some sort of 6-dimensional Chinese finger-trap.
I have also lost access to education because of resources multiple times. I cannot stress how much this has impacted me materially and in terms of morale, both in the short and long term.
The amount of inertia that the self-perpetuating condition, as you aptly put it, is staggering to many that aren't actively experiencing it.
It is difficult to know what aspects of being poor are seen as urgent --or even actionable at all-- by others. Communicating this is complicated, and I haven't been satisfied by the general discourse on the subject, personally.
I dropped out of college because I had to work 30 hours a week minimum to afford it. There just wasn't enough time. All I did was work, school, and homework. I was staying up until 4am doing homework, and then nodding off at the wheel all the way to school a few hours later. Something had to give. Giving up the job was a non-starter. There wasn't anything else to give up. So I gave up school. And that marked the beginning of my battle with depression. I'd grown up quite poor, but I'd never been depressed about it. Because the future I saw was me going to college and becoming successful. Once off that path, a real, deep existential horror that I'd never felt before set in.
That's exactly what I did, funny we posted at the same time. I worked 30 hours a week with fulltime school too. I was able to pull through it though and graduated. Took me 6 years instead of 4 total, but looking back, I would've purposefully taken even longer had I known it was actually one of the best times of my life. I had the benefit of starting at a community college though, which saved money, and those 2 years were easier. I also took other classes at other local community colleges to transfer the max into my university as well once I was there.
Yeah, you're right on the time management part for sure. I was the most efficient with my time during that period of my life than I've ever been. Basically work, class, study in library, repeat. It's not that bad, people are capable of more if they choose to. Best time of my life. It doesn't get better for sure. I've worked like a slave since then, with zero intellectual stimulation as I had at school other than what I seek out on sites like HN.
I've spent 20 years trying to decide what I could have done differently. Usually I conclude that I should have taken out loans. In my defense, I was 16, knew nothing about loans, thought they were scary, and had nobody to advise me otherwise. My single mother was working full-time to support two other kids, and didn't have the bandwidth to help me with school. Besides, that was back in the days before student loans became the foregone conclusion they are now. It only just now occurred to me that I could have blown off the homework, and graduated with lower grades, but there is no way 16-year-old me would ever have considered not doing homework.
Kids are the easiest, fastest (9 month) way to guarantee a life of poverty. Make them get jobs if they're 12 or older. I started working at 12 (paperboy) and never stopped 25+ years later!
My advice is to stop school, work a bit, save up, then finish off that last semester class by class while working.
I worked 30 hours a week while going to college, not because I had a wife or kids, but because no one was helping me and I had to pay rent/bills on top of the loans.
Sorry to hear that. If you are in the US, I am guessing that you can't take out any (more) student loans? They come with a 6 month grace period. Might get you through the semester to get your degree. Maybe you already know that and have done so. You might be able to talk to your school administrators and see if there is any chance of a tuition waiver as well. They should have resources to help. Good luck.
Poor people can’t comment because they’re poor. It’s the survivorship bias problem. People who are currently poor probably can’t comment on HN (or have no idea what it is), so what you see, overwhelmingly, is people who were able to escape poverty. This can lead some people to believe that it’s easier than it is to get out of poverty. And since this is an article about true, abject poverty, “I pulled myself up by my bootstraps with my tech skills” doesn’t really help anyone learn anything.
Sorry if I gave that impression. I have no problem with lots of perspectives. I specifically asked if anybody had made room for, uh, the poor people.
Considering my response has already gotten one "Well you're obviously not poor if you read this", and another asking for clarification of my opinions on non-poor people, I guess this wasn't the place to make that point. Sorry.
> I specifically asked if anybody had made room for, uh, the poor people.
But what does this mean? Unless someone is specifically arguing that poor people should not comment, how is anyone not "making room for" the perspectives of poor people?
I am poor and volunteered my voice on the subject of how poverty affects people. I specifically asked (as a question, not a substantive statement) whether or not my input was welcome. I have also made a point of saying that I have no issue with other perspectives. I can not speak to how you experience my intentions in my writing, but I will try to keep clarifying.
I'm sorry if you felt I was misreading your intentions. Your message did not mention that you were poor, or that you were asking if you specifically are welcome to comment. My answer to that would be: of course you are welcome to comment. Nobody needs to ask permission to comment here.
While there may be HN readers who have little income and possessions and are therefore living in "poverty", true poverty is a lack of those things and a lack of hope that your situation will improve.
If you are really feeling hopeless you don't turn to HN for news on the latest programming frameworks.
They're equally irrelevant, though. Poverty is when you don't have enough money. It's not a state of mind.
I thought some more about part of your earlier post:
> If you are really feeling hopeless you don't turn to HN for news on the latest programming frameworks.
This really doesn't make sense. I've known at least one desperately poor and depressed person who found escape and satisfaction in scavenging and programming discarded hardware. There's no reason people in poverty can't be hackers. Arguably they've got more motivation to hack than people who can just buy the latest widgets off-the-shelf.
I agree with the first part, but not the second. Even when I've been at my lowest, I doubt there's been a day that I didn't check HN. It's just an addiction.
> That’s the correct financial decision, according to traditional economics—to drive the extra distance no matter the original cost. Saving $50 is the same regardless of the amount of the item in question. But wealthier participants saw the savings in relative terms, noticing the percentage savings. By contrast, poorer participants thought in absolute terms. To them, $50 saved was $50 to spend on groceries or the electric bill.
Then traditional economics is a fool. Rich people value their time and their headspace. I’ve seen this again and again with someone close to me: they assign the same priority to tiny financial decisions as to big ones. They do make very optimized decisions but it is within a very small context. In the meantime they don’t realise the world of opportunity they are not seeing because of their obsessive focus on small items.
You're misunderstanding the question they've posed people.
In either situation, the question is "is half an hour of transit worth $50 to you." Whether it's $50 saved on a $300 item or a $1000 item has no impact on the $ saved per minute.
They don't realise it's not worth focusing on saving a dollar here and there, if they then move ahead and overpay for a house or a car (e.g. by not negotiating).
Half the battle is getting a good (or great) deal on expensive, one off purchases, if possible (say everything above $2k). Don't worry about the rest. As with everything: 20% of the "work" gets you 80% of the way there.
You can then not worry about the smaller expenses -- the ones that are generally time consuming and annoying to track -- that tend to make your life miserable.
Yes, Starbucks is expensive, but you're not going to go bankrupt drinking their coffee. You're also not going to get rich by not drinking it.
> "Yes, Starbucks is expensive, but you're not going to go bankrupt drinking their coffee."
I observed people spending 5$ both morning and lunch/day, but for arguments sake stick to 1/day. thats roughly 1300$/year. now imagine living paycheck to paycheck and spending that (very common). they end up taking on dept @20% interest.
in a 5 year window, just that spending on starbucks is effectively costing them nearly 10,000$.
edit: keep in mind, i heard the average 401k savings is ~5k
As someone said, you will not get rich by cutting pennies.
I spend about $50 on starbucks a month, mostly on weekends in the morning, $500/y would be not such a big gain. On the other hand the quality of life I'm getting without good morning coffee would be much, much worse.
If I would need extra $500 that bad, I would consider doing some side work or even changing the job.
It's very easy to go over the top of living frugal and forget what is the sole point of earning money and living your life in a first place.
It really depends. There was a time when what i could have spent on Starbucks was equivalent to at least one main meal, so splurging on a drink like that was a luxury of sorts for when i had extra funds-- this was at tertiary school and got by with a PT job.
They're correct. You should spend the same amount of time to save a dollar on A as you do to save a dollar on B. And you should spend 100x as much time to save $100.
If you're willing to spend 10 minutes to save $100, then you are only willing to spend 6 seconds to save $1. If you can't immediately identify a way to save $1 that would take less than 6 seconds, then don't try to save $1. Each person has a different time/dollar ratio. Some people might be willing to spend 2 minute to save $1, and thus willing to spend 1 hour to save $30.
A house has to appraise at the sales price or else you can't get a mortgage. You can, technically, "over pay" but that would be from savings which most people don't have. Also most first time buyers don't put 20% down so it's even harder to overpay. As for cars you should buy a new car at a low interest rate and hold it or buy a decent used car. You have to figure out the math here b/c after cash for clunkers used cars cost more... then again you can sell your new car for more later as well.
Things might be stricter now, but back when I dabbled in real estate, the appraisal was a farce. The appraiser, the real estate agents, and the loan appraiser could always magically make the numbers work.
Well it's based on comps which is the last 3 houses to sell within your neighborhood. After 2008 things also got stricter. You can also "check" the appraisal by asking your insurance company for the rebuild value of your house. That may have limited utility though but if you have new development of similar sized houses in your area then the rebuild should be close to that and that will set a max prices anyway. Since why buy the old house when you can buy new. Again it's a limited argument but it's another data point.
I believe there are some new regulations that have taken the appraiser out of the back pocket of the bank. I'm not sure if it has made any difference though.
I completely understand the parent comment and I don't think it's a misunderstanding. The idea is that a rich person doesn't care to think through that situation using all their reasoning capabilities, as they're more focused on the long-term; they spend their time thinking about how to get that promotion to prepare for their children's college funds, or something of that sort.
An example: I was raised by a single mother in poverty, where she would try to scrape by and live on welfare without working, year after year after year. She would only think about tomorrow's expenses, and she'd do a great job budgeting to make sure we had enough food to eat and so forth. As a child, I would show her job listings, explain the value of utilizing her assets as well as she could (she had her inheritance invested terribly), and all that. She would never be able to understand it, as she couldn't think that far ahead with all her mental capacity being devoted to making the best decision to save $50, as mentioned in the other comment.
In conclusion, optimizing those tiny financial decisions often leads you to neglect the ones further out. That's the issue the parent comment was highlighting.
Also, traditional economics isn't a fool if you account for the limited economic reasoning capability, and consider that reasoning capability as a scarce resource to be allocated.
Right, but there's a subtlety: The dollars saved in those minutes are worth a different amount to a rich person depending on their relative impact on the sale. $50 off of $300 is a 1/6 discount, so a "good deal" that they will (somewhat recreationally) decide to go and get. But they still don't inherently care that much about $50. You could say if they make lets say ten times what I do, they probably care 1/10th as much as I do, about $50.
Anyway and meanwhile, $50 off of $1000 is a 1/20 or 5% discount. Now it's still the same $50 they don't give a shit about, but it's also now an insignificant discount. Would they spend extra time on what to them is a rounding error on a $1000 purchase? They're not really getting a "deal" anymore, it's a bore, and they decide to spend the extra $50 just to buy back their half-hour. So long as the price is still "about $1000" they're OK with it.
The rational answer is that if you would drive 30 minutes to save $50 off a $300 tablet, then you should also drive 30 minutes to save $50 off a $1000 tablet. You've described the psychology of why a wealthy person might not drive the 30 minutes for the $1000 tablet well (but still will spend the time to save money on the $300 tablet), but that choice is still irrational.
Well yes, it's completely arbitrary! Those with the luxury to act irrationally will sometimes do so, I guess. And economics doesn't do a good job of explaining it, so the root of this branch of the comment tree was kinda right when they said traditional economic theory is a ass.[0]
Adversity and scarcity breeds a precision and a ruthless attention to detail that prevents that $50 from escaping. Meanwhile abundance leads to a relaxing of all such, and maybe even a dulling of that skill. Being born into wealth I imagine would put you at an even bigger disadvantage in that regard... though I might be okay with having such problems...
The reason why people act irrationally has more to do with psychology than economics. Vsauce has a good segment talking about human tendency to think in terms of proportion instead of absolute scale: https://youtu.be/Pxb5lSPLy9c?t=1m53s
That is too simple of an answer, as it ignores the added utility from getting a "good deal" on the tablet. People feel good/smart for finding good discounts and they can even brag about the great price to their friends.
Without that added utility, saving $50 alone might not be worth 30 minutes to them.
It can still be rational, but you need to look at shopping as an aggregate of probabilities.
Let's make it more extreme. A $50 item for free or $50 off a $5000 purchase. Discounts as big as 100% off don't come every day. Maybe you'll never see that deal again in your life. You should jump on it. Where as a 1% discount is something you see every day at dozens of stores. There will probably be a bigger discount next week, so don't bother going out of your way.
If you have to make a choice between the two, you choose the item with the less-common discount.
You're thinking that the question is "should I this item or not", or "should I buy this item now or wait a while". Then it could be logical to prefer the higher percent discount.
But that's not what the study asked. The study said "you need to buy this item now, where will you buy it?" In this case it is illogical to prefer the higher percent discount, dollar value is the only thing that matters.
When behavioral economists do these studies and brag about counterintuitive results, they usually ignore that more expensive items usually have a longer lifespan, so the cost per unit time isn't as different as the sticker price suggests.
I think you're misunderstanding. The question had nothing to do with whether the more expensive tablet is better or not, or which one someone would rather buy.
The parent's comment point was that it may logically be assumed that you'd be doing such an action once every 1 year vs once every 3 years, for example.
Edit: Upon realizing that you'd save the $50 every time you go / every 30 minutes spent regardless of how often, me (and presumably the parent) are wrong, and I'm going to bed. :)
Whether the device will last 1 year, or last 3 years, doesn't change whether you should spend 30 minutes to save $50. The rich people who changed their answers were still illogical.
I freelance, so I consider 30 min travel vs $50 saving differently, depending on how much work I have, when it ought to be done by, and what I'm billing at. If I were billing at less than $100/hr, and had enough slack, I'd of course make the trip. But if I were behind schedule on a $75/hr job, I'd probably pay the extra $50.
But damn, people working 15 hours per day at minimum wage might also pay the $50, if they can't readily get time off work.
It's not just about the $50 vs. time spent. If after the calculation you decided it was worth $50 to spend that extra 30 minute drive, it shouldn't matter if you're saving $50 on a $100 item or you are saving $50 on a $1000 item.
Agreed. Except to the extent that people who buy $1000 tablets care less about saving $50 than people who buy $100 tablets. And their time is more valuable as well. Unless they don't need to work, and enjoy driving.
I'd be interested to know if there was some sort of priming effect going on. With the wealthier people thinking more in percentage terms rather than absolute price, they might expect that the $1000 tablet would be discounted more in the future (if the $300 tablet can be 17% off, why not the $1000 tablet?) and decide to wait it out.
Not really. There is the notion of opportunity cost. 30' might be worth your time, unless investing that time, either working, or even resting, paid you back e.g. > $50. If you expect yourself to make less than $50 an hour (assuming you have to drive back (?), otherwise $100) then that would be a good deal. It depends on your model of course. After some point spending 30' to get $50 off is crazy, if you are struggling to make time for your family.
Either the article does a poor job describing the research, or I find it somewhat incomplete. I mean there is an inherent misconception that $1000 item/asset is much much better than a $300 equivalent. I am curious how that affects the valuation between different groups of individuals.
The study asked some rich people "would you spend 30 minutes to save $50 on a $300 item". Some rich people said yes. Then they asked "would you spend 30 minutes to save $50 on a $1000 item". Some of the previous "yes" answers changed to "no". That is illogical, logically no one should have changed their answer.
Poor people didn't make this illogical answer change.
> I mean there is an inherent misconception that $1000 item/asset is much much better than a $300 equivalent.
That's not how I read it -- the authors were not assigning a qualitative value to the items, only a quantitative one. They did not need to be the same 'type' of asset. It was just that when comparing the savings - 50/300 vs 50/1000 - some people considered the ratio more important than the numerator.
It’s a lot harder to quantify and value headspace. Is there a way? I was expecting the article to quantify it in reduced IQ, but it went the other way.
Quantifying IQ is hard enough - quantifying deltas based on subjective rates of poverty? That'd be a courageous goal.
Authors set out to demonstrate qualitative cognitive differences between people suffering with scarcity (primarily cash) and those not.
People suffering with scarcity have a cognitive load that the 'not' category does not -- I don't think that translates to reduced IQ, but was demonstrated to translate to 'more bad decisions' via heightened and persistent cognitive load.
ADDENDA: From the outside looking in, that phenomenon may be misunderstood by an observer to indicate a causal relationship between bad decision making and poverty. TFA makes the case that causality is inverse to common (by governments, elites, etc) interpretation.
not only do the poor make affected decisions we also know that the poor (1) have a restricted set of feasible solutions (2) face higher uncertainty in outcomes due to the impaired ability to execute solutions (3) have limited ability to mitigate the consequences of a failed solution.
in addition, public policy tends to strip the poor of their agency, not to mention dignity: (1) their choices are dictated without the context of their situation (2) the actual risks they face are ignored or treated as if a wealthier person were to face these risks (3) their actual utility curve is discarded in place of the utility curve of the policymaker or the general public... and then should the poor continue to fail to make full use of these programs that are not only difficult for the target group to take up, but also humiliating and undermining confidence in helping themselves, they are chided for continuing to make poor decisions.
the article offers a few examples that overcame some problems affecting these people. but the story is very different between communities in which members are equally affected by limited resources and unequal communities. the separation of classes of people within a community with elevated inequality blinds the group to the myriad problems the poor face and leads to a caricature of the poor as incompetent - and it is this warped public perception and conversation that is holding back effective poverty programs.
It's not poverty. It's stress. Poverty is very stressful. Any kind of stress stops people from acting the way they normally would be inclined to act. It takes a lot of conditioning and practice to deal with stress without having it impact you and your performance.
Take a little stress off your staff, and instantly everyone starts making better decisions, their work seems more focused. As a manager, the best thing I can do for my team is try and shield them from scope creep, angry clients, and unreasonable deadlines. And make sure everyone has time off when they need it.
Take care of your team, team will take care of the work.
It's also mental. When I was poor and finally got a "student" class credit card, i knew paying off the month's bill was the best option economically, i still could not get around the idea of giving up all my "cash" (money in the bank) to pay off the debt. Even though i could have simply paid off and then should something come up, use the zero balance credit card. No, i still wanted cash available. Knowing this was not the logical option.
The value of cash liquidity seems deep within much economic activity.
It's what, essentially, Adam Smith railed against in Wealth of Nations, arguing that wealth was not gold and silver (liquidity) but real produce and labour capacity. And yet much present economic theory and practice is only so much neomerchantilism.
This makes me suspect a real foundation, at least psychologically, to the behaviour.
Trade is not a zero-sum game, in sum we gain. Cooperation leads to synergy. The sick and poor cost money. Having that in mind, I cannot understand why a country wouldn't give food and money and shelter to the poor. Without shelter, you get sick and can barely work. Without money, you are stressed and get sick. Without food, you get sick and can't work. It's obvious that even the hard working people have a better life when society helps the less fortunates ones. So, why on earth wouldn't a country do it? That would be unethical, irrational and economical madness.
Homeless for nine months and about to be officially destitute tomorrow. At least I’ve had a vehicle to have shelter and live in a warm area.
Combo of Homelessness and poverty is a cycle that is quite difficult to get out of. I took on programming work from nice folks while still homeless, which absolutely backfired. Lack of a normal safe routine and attempting to work from public when under such stress can be an effort in futility. Thus couldn’t work and couldn’t get back on my feet. It’s a vicious cycle
The other consequences are deteriorated mental state from isolation, paranoia, and depressive symptoms all of which serve to make digging out of any hole seemingly impossible.
Constant never ending stress, concerns about basic survival, concerns about physical safety change your mentality. Idgaf attitude prevails, to the point where crime including violence seem less unjustified.
I could go on, and obviously this is just an anectode
The first time I saw abject poverty was in high school on a family trip to Hong Kong. I saw an skinny old lady, wearing literally rags, washing herself from a puddle. I had never seen that in the other countries that we went on family trips to. The image is burned into my brain.
I am lucky having grown up in a middle class family. My father also grew up in poverty and it affected me as well. He was able to provide for us bery well but the specter of being poor was burned into my psyche to an extremely unhealthy level. It lead to a decade of fear and broken relationships because I was so paranoid about losing my money and my livelihood.
Now the combined income of my wife and I make us easy 1%ers and my perceptions of money have changed again. Instead of saving every penny we made smart financial decisions, like buying a house that was very affordable instead of getting as big a house as we could pay for. I’m reasonably comfortable that I will have a job until I retire and I’m very sure my wife will. This allows us the luxury of spending money on things that we never would have, like nannies and cleaners, and traveling business class instead of economy.
It’s something I never, ever, would have considered 20 years ago. When I was scared about money in my 20s and early 30s (never living in poverty,though) I felt vulnerable and that I could “fail”. Going through the dotcom bust reinforced these feelings to the point where I went to the hospital several times due to anxiety attacks. I felt like this wouldn’t last and “winter was coming” so I saved every penny and even ended relationships over money.
After a particularly bad breakup I realized I had a problem. My mindset now is I can always make more money if I lose my job. It might have to be something unpleasant but it can happen. I’m not wasteful with money but I don’t obsess over it anymore. I’m grateful for being in this position obviously, because all it takes is a really bad recession for things to get really bad. Aside from a couple of perks, like the cleaners and nannies, I generally save most of my money for “winter”. It’s a position that, as I said, I’m grateful having. I have friends who aren’t in the same position, and our mindsets in life are completely different.
I think you mean buying in bulk. Buying in bulk is great but often not because if it is food it might go bad before you eat it and if you are poor your limited on space... so huge packs of items don't fit well in your tiny space. Plus the up front cost is a real killer since the money is saved over time. And if you have more of something you might end up using more because it's convenient. And finally if you are splitting rent with many people they will help themselves to the bulk items.
There's a subtle difference between "buying in bulk" and "keeping a reasonable stock".
I grew up in a quite poor family and my parents are terrible with money. One thing that frustrated me to no end is that they would almost never buy something ahead of time. An item would literally have to run out before they'd consider buying its replacement, which meant I'd regularly get in the shower in the morning to find there is no soap, no toothpaste, no toilet paper.
You'd end up going to a local convenience store and paying 2x the price for the item because you need it now. Your grocery budget becomes hugely inflated, and you still end up buying the same necessities. Also when you work on a system of buying one item only to replace the previous, you really miss out on bargains because you have to pay the full price it is at the time you need it, instead of a week or two earlier when the same product was BOGOF.
At the same time, they throw away tonnes of food which has gone off because they can't plan meals and shopping consists of "we might eat that." Food which has a long expiry date (canned foods, etc) always runs out.
> You'd end up going to a local convenience store and paying 2x the price for the item because you need it now. Your grocery budget becomes hugely inflated, and you still end up buying the same necessities.
I see this at a lot at my local 7-11, many poorer people do a lot of their grocery shopping there even though an aldi is 5 minutes walk away (so it's actually closer for some of them, literally across the road) and three other supermarkets are under 15 minutes walk. I suspect there is some sort of psychological effect (possibly from advertising) that is compelling them to go to 7-11 instead of somewhere cheaper and that they aren't making a conscious financial decision.
No, I meant stocking up. If there is a sale on toilet paper, poor folks can save some money this week but cannot buy a couple of extra packages because they don’t have those discretionary funds available. It’s not space, it’s budget.
This is kind of the opposite of what I've seen? The discount grocers often have people buying huge quantities of stuff. Some of which is probably attributable to having a single car for the household.
There is a rather large difference between the monthly EBT run and buying quantity when something is on sale. Having one vehicle, often in poor condition, tends to make people do a once a month large grocery purchase. It is so common that some unscrupulous police officers will have a checkpoint on a known route to write some easy tickets.
It doesn’t matter what’s on sale, the big purchase happens anyway. They aren’t shopping the sales.
I grew up in poverty. My dad is fortunately able to get tuition assistance through the Native American tribe he is a member of. With that assistance, he was able to graduate law school and become a lawyer. As soon as he did that and got his first job as an attorney, our lives changed dramatically. My fondest memory of that time was buying brand new clothes. That never happened before, at least not that I can remember. I was so amazing to wear clothes that weren't hand me downs that were initially purchased used from a thrift store.
The thing is, even with the tuition assistance, both of my parents had to work double shifts almost constantly to keep food on the table. I have many memories of my siblings and I coming home to an empty house in elementary school because my parents would be out working their ass off for us. Most weeks I wouldn't see them until the weekend. Now, as adults, my siblings and I are now living well enough in middle class.
Government programs and assistance for the poor can fail and can be taken advantage of by people who would rather squander that assistance, no doubt, but that doesn't mean all people are like that. It can and does work, but even with assistance, it is not enough. My dad was very fortunate to have a tuition free ride through law school, and we as a family were fortunate enough not to run into anything that derailed his desire or ability to finish law school. Without that tuition assistance, I doubt he could have secured the loans that were needed. Simply cutting assistance programs will not make poor people to 'get back to work' and dig themselves out of poverty. It was next to impossible to do so when I was growing up and it is even worse now.
Can those programs be better? Yes. Should we cut them because they aren't the best? Absolutely not. Please.
This is not the first time this article has come up, and as usual I'll give my 2c.
What qualifies me to talk about this issue? I was raised in the UK on income support, single mother, social housing, low income city etc;
Now the situation has changed somewhat in the UK; back then in the UK it was possible to get by without going into debt if you were smart about things and I believe this no longer to be the case, but I am no longer in this system and; to qualify my statement further: it was not possible to be poorer than my mother was. No family and no registered father on record. (He would have had to pay child maintenance if he was on record, the state does not supply this if there is an absence)
What I found to be true is that my mother will buy the cheapest thing that will do the job, she will treat her time as unlimited in finding similar quality goods for less money. She still trawls second-hand stores and will not buy anything that needs maintenance.
Her cars tend to be 1-step from the junk-yard (even though she has a steady well paying job now).
For myself, I select heavily for things that require less maintenance too. I buy extremely high quality things because I assume that my job is temporary and that I will once-again be plunged into poverty, and if anything needs to be replaced in that time I may not have the financial freedom to do so. I do not have anything that requires recurring costs (no netflix, no apple music.. I will not subscribe to anything that is not a utility), I do not take long-term contracts (if there is a choice between 12months at a cheaper rate or month-to-month for 10% more I will pay the 10% more not to be tied).
This is my anecdatum, of my mother who grew up working class and became poor through choice, and for me, who grew up poor and became middle-class.
I grew up relatively poor in the U.S. under wildly different family circumstances, but I felt myself nodding to the solutions and approaches of both your mother and yourself -- some out of recognition, some out of familiarity.
I've found it almost impossible to enumerate the ways in which growing up poor wildly alters your mindset about money. It's literally mind altering and often nonsensical or hard to explain to people who haven't been through it.
My wife, who grew up in a fairly wealthy household (to parents who themselves escaped crushing poverty), has tried to train me to avoid many of those instincts now that I myself am in good financial status. But I still take a weird kind of comfort at least browsing local thrift stores, figuring out what we'd absolutely need in case of a major bankruptcy or working over scenarios on how to survive and get housing if we lost everything.
The industries that prey on the poor basically exist because they've managed to use these instincts against the poor rather than trying to get people out of poverty. They've always been there, but I'm afraid that they've become much more sophisticated at extracting pennies from people with mere dollars.
Similar situation. Lived with my mother, constantly stressed about survival until she kicked me out at 14. Moved in with my upper middle class father (who should have had full custody from the beginning, courts don't always do it right eh?)
For a while (my mind says 'for now'), I'm able to make about 100k in 6 months in the midwest. My formative memory combined with the local prices make this a nearly unimaginable sum. My "resting expenses" coalesce to no more than 90$ a day at the extreme. At 90$ a day I feel like i'm spending my face off. Any more and it'd feel like I was buying a jetski while unemployed with loan shark money.
58$ a month is $7,000 over a decade. Most things aren't worth that when I think of it in those terms.
To expand my consulting services I bought a unity3d license for $1500 a few years ago. As soon as they decided MRR was the way I pivoted hard towards selling webgl to interested customers instead. Recommended the last company I worked for stay away from AWS Lambda for similar rent averse lock-in reasons. Locking yourself in to something like that reduces your degrees of freedom.
In some ways I'm definitely hamstrung by this attitude. I will never own a home unless I save up enough to buy one in cash (I'm trying!). I rolled my truck a few months after graduating and had to get an auto loan then. I paid it and my student loans off like I was on fire and had to spit myself out. Last time I checked my credit, the "not enough lines of credit" penalties had me in the basement, which is hilarious.
The "not enough lines of credit" thing bit me too, if you don't take debt you can't have debt, it's so bizarre.
Regarding your AWS lambda aversion, I am also guilty of aggressively avoiding lock-in with cloud vendors... Now I wonder if that is related to my upbringing.
I don’t get the aversion to lambda. A lambda function is just a regular function that takes in a few parameters and outputs something. I always separate out the lambda interface from the main logic. Lambda is just another interface for business logic. Correctly structured, it is pretty easy to convert the core of your code to use any interface - a command line, pub sub, rest APIs etc.
Lambda is just nodejs but different. It's an ec2 server running nodejs at a discount if you preform a special AWS dance.
What use is that to me over just writing nodejs? Nodejs as it is can run unmodified on Azure, AWS, digitalocean and a ton of other providers.
lambda invites a work moat to migration. Maybe you use it in a way that doesn't entangle you. Guaranteeing that takes more discipline than I can ascribe to your average team that's willing to use AWS Lambda.
If AWS tripled its prices tomorrow, how long would it take you to migrate? Is it instantaneous? Does lambda linearly correlate with increased migration times? What if aws-sdk dropped support for all non lambda applications. Are you screwed?
Even if you don't subscribe to it, the aversion should be obvious.
You just said it- the advantage is the discount. I don't have to pay for EC2 instances to sit idle and lambda is more finely grained than EC2 based auto scaling.
It really doesn't take any more discipline to separate out your Lambda interface from your code logic than it dors not to have business logic in your controller. I treat the lambda interface method like I would treat a controller. My business modules don't know anything about lambda - just like they don't know anything about http for REST services.
For us, to move from lambda, it would be a matter of putting all of our lambda functions in one big solution and creating the appropriate REST endpoints.
Our consuming code wouldn't change at all for lambdas triggered by http. We use Consul + Fabio for service discovery and URL lookups. We would just change the service registrations.
We have a few message based triggers, but all of our messaging is abstracted into a library. We have a hybrid lambda, raw executable system. When an "event" is triggered it either triggers a real SQS message or the method submits a job to run on one of our app servers using Hashicorp's Nomad (what to do for an event is configured in Consul). I chose Nomad because it gave us the flexibility of not having to use Docker containers but we can when we need to.
I would love to move to AWS Fargate so we could have serverless longer running processes with Docker containers.
I'm the dev lead so I see most code that gets put into production. I try to both tie us to AWS services as tightly as possible and put facades over the services to allow portability.
she will treat her time as unlimited in finding similar quality goods for less money
It is interesting you say this. I have a friend who struggles to get by. Single mom, two kids, a father who does the absolute bare minimum to provide support to his kids, and she is unemployed.
She does get support from the state (rent assistance, energy assistance, SNAP), but it is barely enough to squeak by and what little money is left over is quickly consumed with unexpected expenses.
With that said, I find she spends an exorbitant amount of time searching for "deals". It is not far-fetched for her to spend 2-3 hours to save a $1 on something. While apps like ebates, ibotta, etc.. have made these quick deals better, they still don't cut down on the time she spends. With the apps she spends just as much time searching through the deals or trying to find the best store to get something.
While it can be frustrating at times as a third-party sitting back watching her do this, I can somewhat sympathize. The most frustrating part to me is that she will sometimes say that there is not enough time in the day to get things done. I try to convey to her that at some point time is money. Meaning that she needs to evaluate the opportunity cost of saving a dollar versus spending 2-3 hours to save that dollar.
>I try to convey to her that at some point time is money. Meaning that she needs to evaluate the opportunity cost of saving a dollar versus spending 2-3 hours to save that dollar.
If you don't have realistic prospects of finding a good full-time job and taking on part-time or casual work would result in a loss of welfare benefits, the value of your time is essentially nil. "Working" for 33 cents an hour to find good deals may be the best option available.
Your friend isn't necessarily acting rationally, but she isn't necessarily acting irrationally either. If you've never been poor, it's difficult to understand just how many practical obstacles poor people face on a daily basis.
Think of money as a form of control and you will understand you friend. When you are accustomed to being knocked down every time you get a little ahead, deal searching is something of a coping mechanism, a way to take back control from the system.
> It is not far-fetched for her to spend 2-3 hours to save a $1 on something.
That's not a far-fetched thing for a poor person to do. $1 can buy a can of beans and add nutrition to an otherwise hungry day.
> Meaning that she needs to evaluate the opportunity cost of saving a dollar versus spending 2-3 hours to save that dollar.
Opportunities aren't unlimited, and the closer to poverty one is the shorter their term.
So she needs short term opportunities that beat $1 savings for the 2-3 hour period. Short term here means the amount of time it would take her to spend the saved $1-- let's be optimistic and say two days.
What do you have for her that beats the $1 savings and beats it with the same (or better)predictability of success as searching for deals?
Your comment is good. The relevant question is what can I do right now to make money? Maybe Mechanical Turk? (can you make $1 in 2 hours?). The abundance of human potential sitting idle agonizes me.
Yes, I think you're right-- MT might be a better use of that time. But then, how many other opportunities look very similar to MT but turn out to be scams? What damage can be done by taking out a payday loan?
I think another way to put what I wrote is that opportunity costs are a luxury one can afford once one has saved enough to move on from focusing solely on catastrophic costs like losing food, shelter, electricity, etc.
OP's friend probably started searching for deals because it returned predictable savings and-- most importantly-- carried very little risk. The fact that she's filling lots of idle time with the same behavior is evidence of her poverty as she is probably not able to take on any greater risk for fear of catastrophic failure.
Thus it is suspicious when the OP analyzes only in terms of opportunity costs. It would be more persuasive to convey ideas in terms of catastrophic risk. But that's a more difficult problem to address and an area where the OP-- like most people-- has little expertise.
I think cash cliff effects are harder on the poor.
If your friend comes up a dollar short, she'll miss paying for something. She'll have to choose among food, gas, electricity, rent, meds - all the things & basic services with nonnegotiable prices.
The stress of missing a payment for something critical is enormous. Your friend may be spending 2-3 hours saving a dollar in part to avoid that hard cash cliff and its stress.
Years of that sort of stress will likely degrade one's cognition in ways described in the posted article.
It's tricky though, if you work, marginal benefit from an extra unit of work is quite high.
If you're unemployed and on benefits, it tends to be zero and could even be negative, until you reach a full workweek and/or something above minimum wage.
For example, I know people who receive about $1k a month and don't work. If they worked 20 hours, they'd lose their entire $1k assistance and earn about $650 (at $7.5 minimum wage). If they work 40 hours, they earn about $1300, which ends up slightly above $1k after-tax. They effectively earn the same but now have full-time employment and need to pay someone to take care of the kids. Financially, she's better off saving $100 a month with a 15 hour discount-seeking occupation and taking care of her kids.
It really depends on the welfare system how all of this works, but there's this idea of the benefits/welfare cliff:
They are looking into several forms of scarcity (e.g. time scarcity of busy academics) and how this similarly affects the behaviour, creating a "focus" on the immediate scarcity that distracts from everything else, and prevents seeing the "big picture".
One interesting conclusion being that poverty is a "root" scarcity that begets other forms of scarcity.
Interesting was also the observation that scarcity-behaviour can have desirable outcomes and can be put to use (e.g. using budgeting as a form of artificial scarcity in personal finance).
Frankly, a couple of rounds of Angry Birds doesn't seem like a great way to decide important policy. How many of the studies cited in the article were at least replicated a few times?
One thing that looks paradoxical to me: In the first half it says people going through financially stressful situations suffers from deficit in IQ level and drop in cognitive performance. But at the same time, they can take smart and wise decisions as the experiments suggested.
I wonder how relevant is the question asked in the original article, or - maybe better said - to whom the question has been asked.
>The researchers asked real people of various socioeconomic strata if they were willing to travel an extra 30 minutes to save $50 on a $300 tablet. Some said they were. But when asked if they’d drive that far to save the same amount on a $1,000 tablet, some of the respondents changed their minds. Their answer depended on their income.
I wouldn't even think to ask such a question about buying a $300 (let alone $ 1,000) tablet to someone who clearly cannot afford it (the actual poor people).
I mean, when you are dealing with someone who is homeless or that is on foodstamps (or similar assistance for the very basic needs) are you really going to ask them about the $50 savings on a completely voluptuary item such as a tablet, particularly a $ 1,000 one?
And the question is about "driving" (implying that the "poor" has a car).
I.could tell you a story about how my broken family made it all happen, how a family of 6 boys never made it better, a city or circumstance made the option to be wealthy almost impossible or how generations of economic destruction made me this way. But this all matters not, for what I think , I become.
The only 3 books you will ever need to break out of the cycle are these.
·THINK AND GROW RICH
·GRIT
·A PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE
They are all fundamentally written for you to find the answer on the first page, on the front cover, in every chapter, and of course within YOURSELF. Go now, Be rich.
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn, http://www.bquot.es/s/1023
The proportion of the global population living on less than $1.90 per person per day has fallen—from 18 percent in 2008 to 11 percent in 2013, according to the World Bank. In the United States, however, the poverty rate has been more stubborn—41 million people lived below the country’s poverty line in 2016, about 13 percent of the population, nearly the same rate as in 2007.
Is this a fair comparison? I thought that the poverty line in the US was defined relative to median income. If the definition is changed to $X per day after inflation then maybe the US doesn't look so bad?
Also I would like to see some kind of adjustment for immigration. Imagine that the US lifts 10 million citizens out of poverty and at the same time accepts 10 million poor immigrants. Is it fair to say the US has made no progress on poverty?
> US lawmakers have expressed frustration when investments such as welfare programs don’t pull people out of poverty.
Most US welfare spending is explicitly excluded from measures of poverty; if you're measuring "the values of X excluding Y", increasing Y isn't going to move the needle.
"The U.S. Census Bureau determines poverty status by comparing pre-tax cash income against a threshold..."
American anti-poverty measures overwhelmingly take the form of tax credits (eg, the EITC program), food stamps (SNAP), housing vouchers (section 8 vouchers), and health care (eg, Medicaid). All four are excluded when looking at pre-tax cash incomes. For good or ill, we don't give the poor cash.
I know that's not really the point of the article, but it was a bit jarring.
We already have an issue with business consolidation in the US and the decline of small businesses, I would be wary about anything that might contribute to it, as an inheritance tax might.
I grew up "spoiled" but my grand-parents lived the WWII in France, they weren't poor but they still live in frugality even if they are comfortable since many decades - ex: they do not eat lots of meat. I inherited this frugality and do not like to buy useless stuff.
My girlfriend, a russian who lived in USSR, is the complete opposite. She rely heavily on consumption to be "happy" and to fill an insecurity. It might be genetically cultural, but the communism sadness/deprivation has created generations of Russians who love consumption and luxury lifestyle.
Very interesting findings. The study seems to indicate that poverty is correlated with better economic decisions, unless the option to borrow is present, in which case, poverty correlates with poorer decisions.
Poverty is caused by low or no wages. Not a mindset or lack of education or any other BS. I am technically below the poverty line working as a software engineer on a startup and I work hard. If we made some money or got funded then I would be less poor.
The structural issue is unequal distribution of resources. It's not a personal mental health problem or weakness or other BS used to cover for racism.
Also since I have had less money I have made better decisions not worse. Because I have to.
I might not belong to "poor" because my parents had money, but the thing was that they were extra ordinarily stingy when it came to spending it on me. This resulted in me going to school in torn pants etc
So now that I have money, I don't spend a dime of it. I use the same clothes, same cycle, the only thing I spend money on is books: I buy lots of it.
I had a time in my life where I constantly used the calculator app on my phone.
salary - rent - transport - food * 30 < 0 is stressful.
And this doesn't account for any incidental expenses.
I was blessed enough to have education, a social support circle, a safety net from parents, and some growth to look forward to. Despite that, the stress caused almost daily headaches.
I grew up on welfare well into elementary school and my mom married my stepdad who was delivering oil to gas stations up driving all night on trucks.
Before that I spent my first years in a trailer park where my mom had my older brother and I in her teens, living in a single wide with my biological father and his mother. My dad's mother and both of my parents were addicts and alcoholics. I was taken out of custody and lived with family members until I was about 5 before I could live with my mom again on food stamps when she was single. She found a job as a medical transcriptionist and living in a two bedroom sharing a bunk bed with my brother. She met my stepfather at a church when he was a trucker.
Noone in my family including my older brother graduated high school.
I made straight A's was bored as public schools in the south are notorously bad mine was no different with the exception of overcrowding, riots etc, and after my parents foreclosed on their house we moved into yet another tiny apartment but this one was closed to a bookstore. I walked to Barnes and nobles everyday after school and one day after reading the alchemist in one sitting I picked up a teen vogue (I'm a girl) in the 9th grade in highschool, and read a fashion edition on boarding school fashion ($350 Tori Birch flats) and I thought hmm boarding school sounds like it might be challenging....
I went home and applied to every boarding school in the northeast, got accepted into three and a scholarship to 2. I went to one and cried for three weeks when I made an unweighted 3.96gpa because I wanted a 4.0 and needed to get a good scholarship to afford college.
I went to an engineering school and got a degree in Electrical Engineering, I have worked my ass off and dealt with all of the nonsense of going to school with spoiled rich white boys who did engineering because their dad did engineering and spent their weekends on expensive getaway trips, binge drinking at frat houses with jobs waiting for them at their dads big engineering firm.
Luckily for me I met alot of great kids in college as well who were genuinely geeky and there for the experience, but it has not been fun being a girl in engineering and dealing with the nonsense with that plus all of the ignirnace associated with how easy some people have it relative to me and many people who have it way worse than me. I consider myself lucky to be curious and enjoy hard work, and grateful for all the rich people in my life who have donated literally hundreds of thousands of dollars so people like me could afford to have a good education. I am not slighted or bitter in any regard when it comes to understanding how lucky I am (I could have been a girl trying to go to school in a third world country with no rights money etc) in the grand scheme of things and I truly believe gratitude is a healthy attitude to have in life.
That being said, I genuinely think so many people, particularly young white males whose mother's baby them to not end through their 20s have never struggled a day in their life and cannot understand what it's like to have to budget for a vacation, or food for that matter, buy their own first car and not be able to afford.to fly home on the holidays in college.
When I interned in Manhattan in college I actually met guys who tried to impress me by saying they came from nothing because their dad "only gave me $10,000 to invest when they were 18 and wouldn't give me anything else after that" (accept.of course all the luxuries in their life up to that point, including a good education, summer camps at ivy leagues, a brand new car and a fully paid for $200k tuition with no loans, but I digress...). I sat next to a kid at orientation at the company I was working for complaining about his stock options being limited for 10 weeks due to conflict of interest for the company we were working for. Stock? Wow, I was excited to get my first paycheck so I could pay rent. But these kids swear they "came from nothing".
And many girls I went out with I ended up not being able to hang out with because they would go shopping for Jimmy choose ($600 heels) and to clubs where shots are $50 a pop. I couldn't afford to socialize with them and it never occurred to any of them an $80 sushimi dinner with cocktails could be an affordability issue. They were living in Soho, I was in the Bronx living paycheck to paycheck. It was the first income I had ever had.
I genuinely think there is a level of non intentional ignorance about what it really means to come from nothing and it's a big deal considering politics plays into inner city education, taxes etc.
I'd honestly love to see some of these guys I worked with walk a day in my shoes and try to show up in Manhattan at the age of 21 with $300k to liquidate, no debt and a sports car with my background, and try to lecture me about how I'm not "confident" enough and that's my issue when it comes to advocating for myself in the business world.....
"The proportion of the global population living on less than $1.90 per person per day has fallen—from 18 percent in 2008 to 11 percent in 2013, according to the World Bank."
Is this because $1.90 is 2008 money is equivalent to $2.50 now?
Interesting, took me a while to discern your meaning here[1]. I had never heard of John Bradford, but basically, it's in the spirit of "There but for the grace of God, goe I".
The question I have is: in the ideal society, should anyone have to live with the consequences of their actions without a government safety net to save them? It seems that the liberal answer is "no" and that "nobody is ever at fault for a bad circumstance, and the government should always provide a free solution to get people out of any trouble they are in"
- Examples: health, abortion, addiction, debt, bad money management, etc.
The ramifications of that happening to my dad will probably last multiple generations. He went from a loving father to a loathsome troll of a creature working nights in a oil refinery (I thought at the time) finally. From that my mom and dad divorced. My wife doesn't understand why I have severe dentals problems now in life, or other health issues that doctors told me are from stress. She doesn't understand why I stress so much about money and stay up at night.
I don't know why I'm saying all this the solution is simple but the problem is hard to acknowledge. The poor and destitute simply need help. We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. When we do finally give help it's so conditional and shamed that the hole of guilt someone fell in is practically inescapable.