While some of you may make light of the fact that I am giving you advice, my single most important piece of advice to people who are highly analytical and/or always solving problems is to not give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers.
People will ask for advice if they really want it. People are not “broken pieces of code” begging to be fixed.
I’ve lost friends over this, until one dear friend pointed this out to me in a “look, I have to tell you something really really important” manner.
I've been working on this since I noticed it in myself a few years back. It's really difficult because I'm the "problem-solver," but I'm also the person that people want to vent to.
So I've come to realize - After a friend/coworker shares something that they're sad/angry about, my standard MO is:
1) Say something like "Wow, that must really feel terrible. I'm sorry to hear that!" (I always feel the need to add more to this statement, but it's better off said with a light touch and not heavy-handed.) Then,
2) "I feel like I was in a similar situation a few months ago when..." Important rule about this step - this statement is NOT to be a 1-upper. You're not saying this to proclaim that your situation from the past is more significant/worse than their situation. You're saying this because it helps your friend/colleague understand that they're not alone in how they're feeling, and their feelings are (generally-speaking) justified. Also - You don't talk about what you did to solve the issue. You talk about how you felt, etc. Be vulnerable, be open, and the person venting to you will respond similarly. Finally,
3) Ask "So what are you gonna do about it?" This kinda turns its head on the status-quo. Usually, this is the time you start explaining "Well here's what I did in my situation!" But that's not what you want here. Instead, you're asking the person if they've thought of a plan to tackle the issue. If you've established a "safe space" to discuss the topic, they feel more open about sharing their plan to resolve the problem, even if they don't have a plan and have to come up with it on the spot. Then, more likely than not, they'll ask "What do you think?"
At this point, you're free to let your problem-solving self run wild, assuming that you don't then consider your friend/colleague a "broken piece of code begging to be fixed."
I’m a coach in training and question number 3 there is a powerful question. That’s a really great question to ask because you’re not getting involved in the topic, you’re not giving them ideas, and you’re not working through it for them.
The others are too nuanced to easily explain, but “what are you going to do with that,” is a fucking fantastic question when a friend confides in you. You’re right that this requires some level of safety, but you are making sure they are still self-empowered.
The worst thing you can do is remove that agency and try to solve someone’s problems for them.
This is a great teaching technique as well. It opens the door for students to realize that they can attempt to solve a problem on their own. You also gain more insight into what roadblocks they are running into and what to really focus on. They also get to practice conveying their thoughts and in some cases, this builds confidence as they might find that they were much closer to the answer than they thought.
This is classic mentoring. The difference between mentoring and coaching is that as a mentor you will offer answers. As a coach, you will offer none. In both cases you’re giving them the ropes but in the first you’re holding their hand around them.
The difference is whether the person is expected to manage the situation on their own. If I said that to a buddy of mine who I know works on his own car he would be upset. He imagines himself capable of working on cars and I just communicated I don't think he can handle it.
Nobody wants to be the person that other people see as a basket case. Just because someone is upset doesn't mean they can't solve the problem.
You can make a scenario where anything is rude. Here, if he said something and you said "could it be the fuel pump" that should also be an inoffensive comment, not prompt him feeling like "how dare this fool presume to lecture me about the inner machinations of an automobile; let this mark the end of our friendship"
I dunno man, I think this is more for situations where people are having personal or emotional issues. Things that they might be trying to work through. Not for troubleshooting a broken car or computer.
Unasked-for advice is often not actually helpful and more about the advice-giver than the receiver.
They would probably not say that and just slowly freeze you out of their social life because they found you annoying, grating, or unpleasant to interact with.
People often simply want to share what's going on and be heard and recognized. It's a basic human need.
Unsolicited advice only annoys me if it's long-winded and preventing me from doing something else.
Also, I don't know what "validation" is in this context. Oxford English Dictionary doesn't seem to adequately cover psychobabble (though it does at least have the word "psychobabble").
If a friend/coworker shares something that they're sad/angry about, sometimes they're not asking for advice. Sometimes they just want someone to relate to them and their struggles. #3 can sometimes be a detractor because, once again, you need to wait for them to ask for advice and not just come in with your own advice/assuming that they are even asking for help. Venting emotions != Asking for help
Yes and no. When you ask “so what do you want to do about it?”, you get no as an answer. “I was just venting man” is a legit response, so it’s all fair enough. You can take it from there. Let them vent, you can only vent so much.
I am not sure it is that simple. When someone vents off to me - I can't ignore it, I am no psychopath. This is especially hard with people whom I am close with. Having a solution is what gives my brain to "check it off", which I equally need as they need to vent. What should I do? To tell fuck off with their complains if they are not seeking a solution? (done that to some, they still do not understand) Just keep soaking it in until Ill get wired and depressed? Get drunk to switch off executive function completelly and engage into feelings discussion? Anything else?
I find that I am like most people in these threads and find it difficult to not provide advice on how to solve unsolved problems in other people's lives.
That being said, when more "socially normal" people are the recipients of other people's venting, I don't imagine that they are able to ignore it because they are psychopaths. In fact, I imagine many of them aren't actually ignoring it. I imagine that many of them feel sympathy, some maybe even empathy, but they understand what we don't, namely that unsolicited advice makes it worse. More "socially normal" people understand how to commiserate without providing unsolicited advice, and they understand that such commiseration is helpful.
Like I've told my wife multiple times, if I'm venting, I want solutions. If someone isn't able to give me advice, they're not helpful. But I've realized that more "socially normal" people aren't like this. They often don't care about the solution, they just want to be heard and understood. I don't get it, it boggles my mind to no end. But I've come to accept that it's true (though I often forget). My wife doesn't care for my solutions if she doesn't ask for them. She'll figure it out herself. She just needs emotional support.
Again, emotional support is useless to me. It's idiotic. I need solutions, not emotional support. But other people want the opposite.
Now, how to provide that emotional support... without being flippant, condescending, insincere, etc... is yet another conundrum... partly due to my foundational believe that emotional support by itself is useless. How can I be sincere about something I don't believe to be effective?
Anyway, my point is... I don't think others are psychopaths... they're just more emotionally intelligent as to what other people are actually hoping to get when in need.
Sorry for a wrong impression, I am not saying "socially normal" ones are psychopaths. If their natural reaction to someone's suffering is emotional support - it is totally normal in my book to do it. But for me to fake emotional support to support socially accepted norm without feeling bad about it, would be psychopathic behavior - do what others expect from you to not be frown upon.
And I doubt "socially normal" people "understand" such commiseration is helpful (i am sure it is, by the way), but they are genetically or environmentally conditioned to respond like that and it just happened it is majority like that.
Don't get me wrong. I understand it requires effort to be accepted, and i try to fit in. But being constantly under stress during my normal day, adding on top of it someone's else emotions about something they do not want to fix, but rather want to share stress with someone as a social interaction, is no good for me mentally (very different story at parties where I get quickly drunk enough to no pass out, but completelly turn off my internal problem solver btw - I can talk feelings all night long).
You bring up a lot of challenging questions. Here's a perspective I've heard that I found insightful:
Somethings can be true and useful.
Somethings can be true and neither useful nor useless.
Somethings can be true and counterproductive.
These philosophical statements I think do apply to general conversation. Sometimes it's not useful to tell somebody what steps they need to take, sometimes because they put themselves in the situation in the first place, and sometimes because they just need to understand it from a wholistic perspective.
Because people are at seeing their actions. We then judge ourselves by our motives—and others by their behavior. Even the smartest of us.
I'm the same. A problem solver that people bring information to and also vent to. I have no problem making decisions and I consider my instincts to be very good which can make it worse when I have a solution so soon. I've been working on being a better listener, getting more info and considering more angles and perspectives.
You make some great points above which is what I try to follow too after doing it poorly in the past. It's especially important if you're married. :)
My wife almost always wants my perspective but she wants to be listened to first and to vent on occasion. And also to ensure I have all the information first before I weigh in.
The trouble I have with #1 is when someone tells me their problem and they don't want help with it, now I have a new problem to worry about, and worse, I can't take action to solve it because the problem isn't mine.
I guess the trick is not worrying about other people's problems. But... I dunno, I just don't like unsolved problems hanging around.
The answer is to stop talking to normies. We'll make a virus some day that eliminates the nonspectrum and all be better off as a species. Sorry, I don't actually want that, I'm just venting. Wow that actually helped, maybe the normies are on to something.
You can always set a boundary with friends not to tell you their problems. "Hey, I appreciate you wanting to share with me, but I'm probably not the right person to just talk about problems with. I'm happy to listen if there's something I can do to help or if you want advice though!"
Sometimes people just want to talk, they want to be heard; occasionally bouncing ideas or thoughts on somebody can help come to a realization, or even a solution to a particular problem.
I think you can skip #2, if you're trying to help then this is about them, it's not about you, so probably the word "I" can be removed from your vocabulary for the rest of the conversation. Algorithm for nerds is: ask questions, repeat back what you heard. Also works in sales!
It depends on the context. If you have had a very similar experience, it can help to share that they are not alone in their feelings. But reaching for straws to try to draw a similarity where none exists isn't helpful.
I really like this script! My neat trick is to directly ask "Do you just want to vent? Or do you want my advice?" If said in a gentle and non-sarcastic tone, this works pretty well on other engineers with meh social skills. I don't think I know any socially competent people to test it on.
What I struggle with after #3 is when I get the response "I don't know". At that point I really don't know what the next steps are beside trying to come up with solutions (and that doesn't work out too well sometimes).
A farmer is sitting on his porch in a chair, hanging out.
A friend walks up to the porch to say hello, and hears an awful yelping, squealing sound coming from inside the house.
"What's that terrifyin' sound?" asks the friend.
"It's my dog," said the farmer. "He's sittin' on a nail."
"Why doesn't he just sit up and get off it?" asks the friend.
The farmer deliberates on this and replies:
"Doesn't hurt enough yet.
I think it’s often a less is more kind of thing. If the goal is to listen, not offer advice or solutions, just acknowledging the answer is enough: “Gotcha”, or “I see”, or “Yeah it’s a tough one”. Then leave them the space to continue if they want to.
Like many here, this has not been natural for me, but one thing I’ve been impressed by is how much more people will be encouraged to talk if you just give them short answers that show you’re listening and leave the ball in their court vs. taking over the conversation at every opportunity. Sometimes you just have to let the silence hang for a bit.
To add to this, it’s important is to realize that even when people open up to you about their problems, that still does not mean that they are asking for advice! It’s very likely that what they primarily want and need from you is sympathy and validation. If you’re unsure, ask first.
I've learned that people hardly ever want advice. Mostly, they want you to tell them that everything is okay.
The hard thing to square is, if you really care about someone, and you really think you have some input that could help them, you need to figure out how to communicate that without annoying them / hurting their feelings.
It's also important not to have an ego when giving advice / input. It's likely that you're not perfectly correct.
At least for me, I would love advice that perfectly solves all my problems. But probably this advice doesn't exist, because if it did, I would have figured it out already. I often have conversations that go like this -
Me: I have this problem that sucks.
Other person: Have you tried A?
Me: No, I thought about that already. A isn't a good idea because of B.
Other person: Well, what about C?
Me: No, I thought about that too. C isn't a good idea because of D.
Other person: (Angrily) Well, I don't know how to help you then.
And so now in addition to having to deal with a hard problem to solve, I have to deal with making other people angry about how they can not solve my hard problems.
I've been on both sides of this. When somebody will try and help me in a situation like that, once they suggest one thing to me i've thought of or tried, i'll usually give a quick rundown of what I have tried and thought of. Doing it that way still validates them and at that point i'll usually say something like so 'I dunno what do you think, any ideas?'. Then they might give another suggestion I have or haven't thought of. If it's something I have thought of and realized won't work, instead of saying I already thought of that, i'll pretend to think about it, then give them my reason I thought of before for not using that option, but pretend I just thought of it.
People get angry, because they want to feel helpful and useful. When they can't help with something they feel frustrated and when you tell them you've already thought of everything, they feel stupid. By doing it the other way, they still feel like they've helped you. I'll usually try and be light hearted about it and laugh about how it really is a difficult problem or something like that. When you do it that way, it puts the problem into perspective for them and they don't feel stupid for trying to help, they feel like it's something difficult you're both trying to solve. Then they inevitably get bored and go do something else and leave you amicably to work on your problem. At least in my experience.
The other thing is tailoring it to the individual. All of this is easier if there’s less ego on both sides. I try to operate that way generally, but everyone has their triggers. There’s no one size fits all solution.
I'm a different person then. When I talk about my problems, I do want advice, because if I'd have already figured out a solution, I wouldn't be talking about it in the first place!
I just don't understand this humanoid need for seeking emotional validation by pretending to ask for advice. A lot of my friends and acquaintances do that, and I know how to handle it, but myself, I just can't do that.
I don't think pretending to ask for advice is a fair description of what's happening. usually when people tell me about their problems, it comes in the form of declarative sentences. clearly venting, not asking for advice. sometimes they'll say something like "I don't know what I'm gonna do" or "what am I gonna do?" which almost sounds like asking for advice, but really isn't.
now if someone describes a problem and asks "what should I do?", that is a clear solicitation for advice. if they get mad at you for trying to help solve the problem, that's totally on them.
Very often, there is no perfect solution. Even if somebody has some idea what they can do about the problem, that doesn't mean they can just do it and everything is great. Say, if your marriage is falling apart, you can either stick with it and try to improve things or get divorced. Those are your options, and they're both painful.
In some cases People aren’t looking for the advice/solution, as much as the recognition that they have a problem... person A tells a problem, person B suggests ways to resolve the problem, to which person A has to give/come up with a reason why that solution won’t do.
We then repeat this until a stalemate is reached, and everybody can acknowledge that person A is justified in their feelings about having a problem...
So on the flip side; your example seems to be a misinterpretation of this game. I.e. some person who’s played this game, and learned that this is what to do, meets a frustration where you’re not playing along with it... (maybe)
Short order solution; don’t play that game with people who don’t have a healthy relationship with frustrating problems.
- If I talk to someone about a problem and he gives me a suggestion. I know that he is trying to help. getting mad at him is unfair because he means well. In fact what's natural is to be happy that someone values me enough that he's spending effort to help me.
- If someone talks to me about a problem that I can't solve. I'll try to help, if I don't know the answer. that's normal. I don't know everything.
- If I try a solution to a problem and It doesn't work, I get frustrated not at the asker, but because It didn't work.
If everybody acts this way, The situation gets easier for everybody, problem are solved if possible and no bad feeling are had,if not.
In fact this behaviour follows directly from already well established moral values: giving others the benefit of the doubt, not being vain ( needing others to validate/compliment you), humility, "I know that I know nothing", Thirst for learning.
I don't understand why autistic people are assumed to be wrong/inferrior in scoial contexts even when their behaviour is the right thing to do.
Another example is trashtalking people behind their back. I always feel compelled to either say a nicething about that person, defend him/play the devil, stop the conversation. People don't like it when I do that, although I'm sure that they, as well as I, would appreciate if someone defends them when they are not there.
> I don't understand why autistic people are assumed to be wrong/inferrior in scoial contexts even when their behaviour is the right thing to do.
The world would be a better place if you ever found an answer to that question.
It's not a fair comparison[0], but I tend to internally categorize people as logical or emotional. It usually helps keep things running more smoothly to treat the two groups how they prefer.
The trick is to not make the distinction a value judgement. I'm usually pretty good at that, but sometimes I slip up.
[0]: Because both groups display traits of the other, and it's not a hard line distinction. Ever seen someone on the spectrum throw a tantrum? It might (might) be logic that started it, but emotions take over nearly immediately.
Well you kind of led them down a path to failure/wasted effort. One of the best ways to prevent these kinds of unhappy conversational paths is pre-emption. If you've already considered A, B, and C, then you can assume that someone else might think of them, and you should mention them in your initial problem statement. "I tried A but then realized it wouldn't work because of B." Now you've communicated the same information and skipped the part where you ask them for ideas and instantly reject them. They may still be equally unable to offer a solution, but at least they haven't gotten frustrated and given up before understanding the true problem.
are you positive that B and D are rule out A and C?
maybe a slight more productive way to have these conversations would be
"I thought about A, it didn't seem like a good idea to me because of B, what do you think? Am I thinking about this wrong? Is there some reason why B doesn't prevent A from being a good idea?"
subtle difference, but it signals that you value their input and ideas, and leaves open the possibility of you learning new things about your problem
(if you don't value their input and ideas, perhaps you shouldn't share your problems with them)
There are two reasons someone might come to you for help.
(1) For advice. Simply put, to get problem solving input. This is the less common case, however. (2) To get emotional courage to face whatever difficulty they have. This is the more common one.
Most people feel the best when THEY manage or solve their problems. But this is really hard. Often one's emotions get in the way. By sharing them with other people, you can sometimes release a pressure valve which makes someone feel more capable of dealing with their problem.
What I've found is people usually want to be validated. That they exist; and they are important enough to be listened to. That's all. If they ask for more, fine. But usually, listening is the Gift they are asking you for.
And that more often than not, the speaker already knows potential solutions and next steps, they just want you to agree that it sucks. Too often, solutions driven people try to solve venters' problems rather than simply listening to what they are.
Sometimes people are more receptive about suggested solutions after you've expressed some solidarity.
"Yeah that does suck"
"That situation happened to me, it was a pain in the ass, I tried to do X, it didn't work that well, then I tried to do Y, it seemed to work ok, if I'm in that situation again, I'll probably go with Y"
You're talking about colleagues, who you don't have any duty to be emotionally available for, but the parent poster is talking about friends and family.
Even if you have no contractual obligation to listen to your coworkers, in general many people enjoy, and potentially expect, to become closer with their coworkers which is generally accomplished through sharing personal details and emotions. It's totally fine if you don't want to participate, (and it's possible for people to over-rely on others for emotional labor) but I think many other people are more productive when they're more than just acquaintances with their coworkers.
You may not feel an emotion connection to people you've spend thousands of hours around but that is unusual. Most people do. You can't really expect people who spend 1/3 to 1/2 of their waking hours in close proximity to one another for years to not become friends and confidants who are able to talk about serious, non-work things together. It's normal.
Some colleagues you spend a lot of time with and and there is still a bond even if you are not real friends that would spend time together outside of work.
Sometimes my colleague needs to went about a project that is going bad or a person that is making their life difficult and sometimes I might do that as well. You listen and sometimes you discuss solutions but sometimes it just venting about a situation you both know is shitty.
Just don't become they guy/girl who is always negative or talking shit about people though.
Thanks for pointing this out. I agree 100%. When I find myself in this situation however I find it hard to be authentically sympathetic. And if it's not authentic I have trouble doing it at all. Am I broken? Is there anyway to work on this?
The focus is on the person, not the problem they are describing. So the question is what they need as evidenced by their choice to talk about the problem, not what they need as evidenced by the existence of the problem itself.
In other words, a choice to talk about a problem can be fueled by several possible impulses - the need to solve the problem, the need to connect with their friend, the need to share the interesting complexity of the problem, etc.
Good advice. Sometimes people clarify situations by talking about them, and simple active listening can provide what's needed.
If sympathy is what they want, and you start offering solutions, they will be tempted to argue back about why the solutions won't work, and then (as the saying goes) you have two problems.
To refine this, it's not necessarily about giving advice unsolicited, but minimizing the personhood and agency of the person you are giving advice to. Sometimes giving unsolicited advice is the best thing a friend can do, but you need to do it in the right circumstances and in the right way.
Anyone who receives unsolicited advice often has reason to believe that the advice giver (a) doesn't truly understand the issue at hand (b) cares more about themselves being the giver of information than it actually helping.
Before you give advice, you need to make sure you've established trust. One way of doing this is to actively listen and communicate back what you understand. Many social problems involve an emotional aspect, which is why many people recommend acknowledging the emotions of another person.
Spewing a ton of information without listening doesn't build trust. And if you present it as something they SHOULD do, versus something they have the OPTION of choosing, that minimizes their agency. People don't like to be bossed around.
The reason why your comment is no big deal on this forum is that you haven't targeted anyone personally, so nobody feels like you are misunderstanding their personal circumstances or that you are trying to trump their agency.
You noted the irony that you're giving us advice about not giving advice. But there's actually a double irony because you're giving advice about not giving advice due to your friend giving you advice about not giving advice.
The problem with online forums! In real life you can check if the person wants advice: do a "meta" offer of advice and back off if they don't want it. But on a public forum you need to put it out there. If HN had a spoiler feature that might help as you could make the advice shown on click.
I noticed this too. I think that as a fellow advice-giver problem-fixer, I actually welcome unsolicited advice if it's useful. That's basically why I give it - since I'd like to get it. So the friend probably realised that.
The difference, as I see it, is between giving a general advice and giving advice as a response to someone venting about something. There is no problem with telling, "I have learned that X", or "in my experience X is a good thing to do when Y". The problem is when you answer with, "you should do X" when someone tell you about a problem they have without asking for help with solving the problem.
It is even a difference between me saying something like: "The way this work in javascript sucks", which clearly is venting. And: "the way this work in javascript is so confusing, can you help me understand it?" Someone writing a blog-post about how this work is of course also advice, but not as a direct answer to someone venting about it.
Meta, I know the sentence structure wasn't the best, but I don't want help with improving it right now
I've stopped helping, or even started avoiding, some "friends" because of this.
Of course some tact is needed, and I've sometimes got that wrong. You have to properly listen before making suggestions, perhaps you need to ask questions first too to make sure you actually really understand, and definitely watch for signs (or explicit mentions) that advice/solutions are not wanted at this point (sometimes people just need to sound it out, to help get things in order in their own heads), and don't give definitive sounding advice when you aren't as sure as you sound, and sometimes great care needs to be given to your wording/intonation (lest advice be confused for judgement), but if after all that I make a suggestion and get my face bitten off, I am not the dick in that situation.
An actual quote, yelled before storming off: "oh, that is just like you, trying to solve everything". Damn right that is just like me, the me you know well. If someone I care about has a problem in front of me then yes I'll try help them solve it. If you don't like that, then making me not care is not particularly difficult - screaming "oh, that is just like you, trying to solve everything", storming off, and not offering any apology at all afterwards, is an effective step in that process.
Of course I need to be aware that how I react to problems may not be what other people want, and I'm not afraid to admit that empathy is a trait/skill I am sometimes not as strong in as I would like to be. But accepting that other people are different should work both ways.
What happens when people tell you about problems that require experts in a specific area to solve, and you are not an expert in that area? Do you still try to help?
Like I will tell my friends and family about problems I am having at work because they are my friends and family and I assume that they care about how my life is going. If they are able to provide solutions, I will not rule it out for them. But most likely they are not because they have different jobs. When people attempt to give advice on things they don't know about, I assume they are more interested in appearing smart than my well being.
> about problems that require experts in a specific area to solve, and you are not an expert in that area? Do you still try to help?
Depends on the situation. I would certainly make it clear (if I didn't think it was already abundantly so) that anything I said wasn't from a position of expertise.
If someone is simply wanting to sound out a problem, or is seeking to describe their frustration as in your example, that should be fairly obvious from their wording (this tends to fall apart a little when there is a bit of a language barrier, so take extra care in those situations).
They may be deliberately looking for an outsides view - sometimes even a wrong suggestion can jog the mind towards some wood that you've not seen for the trees. Here asking questions can help: if you try to formulate your problem in a way that an outsider understands it can actually help your own understanding, or make you spot the simply thing that you'd managed to miss while "thinking too hard".
Another way of helping rather than directly, particularly in technical matters, is to suggest other helpers ("have you asked [insert someone I think will be able to help for more than I, here]?"). Or even general problem solving help. They may just need a distraction (the old "fresh air / food / hydration / company - then hopefully hit the problem again with a fresher mind).
> When people attempt to give advice on things they don't know about, I assume they are more interested in appearing smart than my well being.
I would agree with that, but only after allowing for the above caveats. And I try to be polite when it happens: the Dunning-Kruger effect can lead people to innocently misunderstand both complexity and scale, through no malice nor desire for self promotion.
If so, maybe that was clear and I missed it. Or maybe it very much wasn't, and they should know me better than to expect different behaviour in that case.
Unfortunately, in english, it doesn't rhyme that nicely: "An undemanded advice is a punch." (I seriously doubt that "undemanded" is the best translation for "ungefragt", but you get the idea.)
When feel like people would benefit from advice to the extent that not giving it would be unfriendly/selfish/whatever itself, I try to follow following guidelines:
* Refraining from using "you did", "you said", "you <whatever", but instead choosing something like "I read that as", "I interpreted it this way".
* Not implying what the other one meant, but instead saying something like "when I did it the way you did, I did it because of xy. Only later I learned that I was wrong, and people didn't actually mean it that way." That puts you onto the same level as the person you are talking to. Even if the other person takes what you say as accusation, you are accusing yourself of the same, so it's less bad. Plus, there is still the emergency exit for the other person to say "well, actually my reasons for stating it this way are entirely different".
In Chinese culture, there's a big thing about your true friends being the ones who will tell you when you're wrong. A coworker, on the other hand, is not your responsibility, it's their life they're screwing up.
Of course, that doesn't mean people like it.
Personally, I will eventually give advice to people if they're venting. I'll make it polite, of course. If they don't want to fix their shit, then I'm not obliged to listen to it.
The best advice I've ever been given is when I didn't ask. Honestly trying to please people doesn't always help them out. Being the bad guy can help them more than sulking with them. A good friend will care more about you than what you think of them.
This exactly. I spent most of my professional career actively SEEKING feedback at every turn. So it's kind of a relief when someone offers "free" advice, even when it's personal.
While it's rarely very useful, and sometimes annoying, it's not something people expect me to be offended about. If it's really not that useful the conversation changes quickly. It's usually just a window into another's frame of mind. I welcome it.
In Poland, we have a proverb "One gets to know his true friends when he's poor." A true friend will be with you in times of need, a false one will break ties.
With my wife, when she was upset about something, I'd tell her how to fix it. That... didn't go well. Eventually, I learned to just let her talk, and for me to say "Uh huh", for about five minutes. Then I could tell her how to fix the problem. But I had to listen for five minutes first.
Note well: Five minutes worked for me talking to my wife. For person X talking to person Y, the correct time may range from 0 to infinity.
Same here. I learned the hard way that I have to pay the entry fee of listening for 5-10 minutes and affirming emotions before I'm allowed to offer solutions. This wasn't immediately obvious for me, because in my case, the optimal listening time is 0 - if I didn't want actionable advice or knew how to solve a problem, I wouldn't be bringing it up in the first place.
Partly because, in that situation, I'm the one who's not upset. I'm not the one who's on the verge of tears. I therefore am probably more able to make the adjustment at that moment.
Eh. Consistently applied, that logic lets some people (maybe not even the most emotional ones involved) overrule the thoughts and feelings of others with their emotions. One person has thoughtful opinions, another has emotional needs.
Who should be considered? Well, both.
At least over time. I'm not saying finding the balance in a relationship is appropriate at the moment when people are emotional, but it is possible to emotionally neglect or bully someone who is fairly even-keeled.
And, of course, I've seen less emotive women bullied by emotionally unstable men. I wouldn't say it's necessarily one gender getting the short end of this dysfunctional communication pattern.
At it's most basic, it is simply a matter of trust. If the other person doesn't trust you not to attack their emotional stance, then by listening for a few minutes and acknowledging that you're willing to do so, you signal to them that you aren't going to do that.
Made me chuckle. Your "just let them talk for 5 minutes", is another person's "wait until they're receptive to feedback." :)
I've never met a frustrated or angry person who is receptive to actual feedback. I'm the same way. Validate my emotional concern first, then move on to the next step.
Most of the time all I need to do is vocalize my problem... and that works best when I "have the floor."
If you don't mind me suggesting, that is really what was happening.
It might well be that that's what was happening - validating her emotional concern. But, you know, I'm an engineer. "Validate her emotional concern" isn't really in my toolbox. "Listen for five minutes" is something I can figure out how to do.
> Your "just let them talk for 5 minutes", is another person's "wait until they're receptive to feedback."
The way I'd put it is "just let them talk for 5 minutes" is another person's "actually listen to them before offering feedback". I'm constantly surprised by how many people offer advice without even hearing what the problem actually is.
Highly recommend "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation" by Deborah Tannen. Tannen is a professor of linguistics. What you just describe is one of the typical difference in communication styles between men and women. Her other book "That's not what I meant" is also a good read.
I'm 33 and I wish I learned this a long time ago (I started realizing I did this 4 years ago and it took a while for it to sink in how much people dislike unsolicited advice).
I think, for me, it comes from a deep desire and need to be "noticed" and when I am observing someone or listening to someone and there is an opportunity for me to start "fixing" I feel this compulsive urge to do so.
I've started telling myself: just STFU. STFU, let them talk, and if after talking they open the door for feedback or thoughts or observations share them, otherwise they only want someone to acknowledge what's going on for them.
Unsolicited advice is also really vicious the more I've thought about it, you're robbing someone of the opportunity to figure things out for themselves, even if you've figured it out yourself or you have a great way of doing things, most people will and should figure things out on their own (and those that want to improve will open themselves up to feedback).
One instance of this I've struggled with (mainly b/c online comms is hard) is when people publicly post that they're annoyed about a confusing thing. "OMG why does it take 10 clicks to do X". This often prompts solutions ("If you turn on Y, then it will only take 2 clicks"), but can sometimes then be followed by irritated rebuttals ("Yes yes I know it's configurable but the point is...").
On the one hand I get the desire to just vent. But if you're going to post certain types of problems (esp technical) very publicly, IMO the expectation should be for unsolicited feedback, especially since others might benefit. Nonetheless, I still usually err on the side of not replying.
I can see myself being one of these irritated people. More than once, I've posted (maybe not even on Twitter; maybe on a support channel of some sort) something like "why did it take me 30 minutes to figure out how to do X?" And people, particularly the developers or people in the community, will reply with "just do Y and Z and you can do X". This irritates me because I didn't say "I can't do X!", I said "it took me 30 minutes to figure out how to do X". I.e, a usability problem, not a functionality problem. And the fact that it doesn't register to them that this is what I'm complaining about is all the more irritating ("yes I know, but the point is..." from your example), because it feeds into my bias that they have a blind spot about their own UI.
As to whether I'm just venting, I suppose I imagine that on Twitter the developers might hear my complaints. (And yes, as such I should always remind myself to keep my complaint relatively respectful for this reason).
Generally when people come to you about their problems they do not want or even need advice. Whenever I am in that position I try to help them understand the problem, by just asking questions to understand the problem clearly myself.
You can dig pretty deep in that way and they may open up to the root of the issue, and sometimes reveal a belief that is preventing them from carrying out the correct action.
In many cases once they have talked at length about the problem so that all it's ramifications are as clear for you as they are for them, they have also greatly increased their own perception of their problem, which generally reveals an obvious solution (and this is the important bit) that they themselves have to put into words.
The "solution" may be obvious to you, but if you present it as such immediately you will get pushback.
Can relate. Being a good listener usually allows people to solve their own problems just by you letting them explain it to you.
I used to joke that at a previous gig I was the team's therapist because I'd take people out to coffee or a beer and let them vent about whatever problem they're dealing with, while not really caring too much about it myself. Very rarely did I ever give any advice unless I was directly asked, and usually I would just give a question like "Well, have you tried this option?".
Listening to the problem while simultaneously not caring about gives the other person the ability to care less about it as well - and a solution usually presents itself.
> People will ask for advice if they really want it.
People will even ask for advice even when they really don't want it! So don't say that a girl is fat and needs to diet even if she asks you why she can't get the guys she want and tell you to be honest. Some want to hear that but most don't.
"I have no idea what guys want. Every guy is different. And it's not just you: there are seven billion people in the world, and some of them are not going to be into you no matter who you are. But among those seven billion there are also going to be some who like you for who you are, so don't give up. But be careful about falling into the trap of being gloomy because you think you're never going to find someone, because that can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy."
You have to know the person to be sure they are ok with it. If there is any uncertainty then don't be honest about what you think, just give the standard advice like "Just be yourself" or "You are wonderful, just haven't found the right one yet!".
The alternative is to just be brutally honest and that way filter out friends who aren't ok with it. It might hurt a bit, but if you value this kind of communication over having many friends it could be worth it. Just don't do this at your job since you will likely get fired or managed out.
>The alternative is to just be brutally honest and that way filter out friends who aren't ok with it.
I found the inverse to be even more valuable. Finding friends who are not afraid to be brutally honest with you when the situation calls for it is difficult, but worth it so much. Just make sure you actually can receive this kind of criticism first without taking it as a personal attack.
yes and no. the actual content of a conversation is often not the literal meaning of the words. many conversations are actually meaningless, but serve to anchor participants in the script. when the cashier says "hi, how are you?" and you say "alright, how about you?" even though you feel awful, this is not really lying; it's just a choreographed handshake that begins the transaction.
in the stereotypical "does this dress make me look fat?" conversation, the person is (probably) not asking whether her partner think she looks fat. the actual content here is usually a request for reassurance. even if the partner does think she looks fat, "no, of course not" isn't really a lie; it's just satisfying the subtextual request.
if on the other hand, she says "I have a meeting with some executives today, does this outfit work?", she is looking for a literal answer and responding with reassurance would be unhelpful.
I've taken this even further. I no longer correct any factual mistakes or misspoken words unless the person making this error is either a student or someone who reads. Even then it may be best to not say anything.
Often, mispronouncing a word means you've seen it in print, but haven't heard it said aloud. So I've heard some people say that they mentally frame it not as an embarrassing mistake but as a sign that the speaker reads a lot.
As a non-native english speaker it's a weird mix of confusion/joy/madness when I see native speakers who don't read spell a word in a horrendous way that only makes sense to me the instant I read it aloud internally. The same language but spoken or written it's two different worlds.
I can relate to this 100%. The funny thing is though, I actually like it when friends give me candid unsolicited advice -- of course as long as it's communicated respectfully and not in a condescending manner. I take it as a sign that someone is more than superficially interested in the interaction with me, and it helps me understand other people's viewpoints.
“look, I have to tell you something really really important”
See, this is what I mean. In that case it was your friend giving you unsolicited advice and it sounds like it was actually important advice to receive and your life improved as a consequence. Do you now like your friend less?
You are spot on. I have had to learn this multiple times. If the person is not willing to accept the observation with open arms (hint: most are not), you will only push the person away. However, I can't help but see the small irony in your reply.
>[do not] give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers
>one dear friend [gave me unsolicited advice which helped]
I think the standard psycho-therapeutic "tell them how it makes you feel" advice applies here and accounts for the difference. It's one thing to give unsolicited advice to someone. It's quite another to tell a close friend "Look, I need to tell you something important because I care about you. When you start telling me all the ways I should change to be a 'better person', it really makes me feel bad, and makes me not want to hang around you. It certainly doesn't motivate me to actually make any of your suggested changes."
I don't really think unsolicited advice is even that bad usually. if you see someone struggling with a task and offer a good tip, they usually appreciate it. when someone starts venting about a problem, they are (implicitly) asking for something other than advice: usually just a kind ear. this is basically the worst moment to start offering advice.
Not only that,but people take offense at factual analysis. If I present a fact and reasoning on why I consider it a fact, regardless of how unpleasant it might be I expect people to not take it personally and either contest my reasoning or accept/ignore what I said. However, being correct does not mean I shouldn't be sensitive to my audience. For example, if someone is a flat earther and I tell them why I think they are wrong, the more reasonable my argument is, the more they take it personally and get hurt because they tie their worth and value to their beliefs on those subjects.
Avoid people that can't stand facts? Isolation sucks.
I recently read a book called Mindful Communication that uses a red/yellow/green light model for understanding the state of mind of the other person. In a discussion, there's a relationship; relationships are not fact-based, or in a vacuum. You have to take the immediate context as an input as well, to understand how receptive the other person is.
Or not. However, if the concern is to state facts, then it's not really a communication because it ignores the reception and betrays the actual intention of the fact-stater.
Most of the hand wringing about advice here is overblown.
Definitely pay attention to the audience. If they're bored or off-put by advice, stop it. Maybe slip an apology in.
But part of being yourself, (generally what people advise!) is being OK with some people not enjoying your approach. Other people will enjoy a nice troubleshooting session and they'll stick around.
This is especially important with your spouse/partner/significant other.
At the beginning of our relationship, I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm not asking for you to solve my problem, I just want you to listen!"
It can be frustrating, I know, but just shut up and be there for the person that just needs you to be there.
This is a good start. I would strongly recommend focusing on listening and asking questions when a friend comes to you with a problem or something on their mind. People universally want to be heard and understood. Offer emotional support, if by some chance you really think your friend is in the wrong, that person probably needs to be lovingly nudged rather than abrasively confronted.
Occasionally people do legitimately want your advice & perspective and to be careful about it you can precede it with "would you like to hear my perspective/advice?"
Many people view this as wanting to help solve a problem. Many people it in a much less benign manner, and in fact view it as a possible sign of pride, arrogance, and (past a certain point or in extreme cases) delusion on the part of the speaker if they keep trying to give advice on matters where they aren’t qualified, or without giving the right attention to the context, or taking into account other issues they may not be aware of.
The last part seems on point. I imagine a lot of advice people give is pretty obvious and the person with the problem has already considered it but can't action it because of some other reason the advice giver didn't think of and the person giving advice is sick of having to explain why all of the suggestions given will not work.
I've started to ask my girlfriend if "she wants me to solve her problem" or just "want me to listen" quite often. If you tend to fall into this trap, like I do, I can really recommend this approach.
Unsolicited advice feels like criticism. It almost never is intended as such, but that's often how it feels. It's also almost always self-serving; the advisor wants to be a hero, and the recipient picks up on this and ends up feeling alone. Really recommend the book Messages: The Communications Skills Book by McKay.
I'd rather just not talk to someone like that so if they don't want to be friends anymore over being suggested a mechanic when having car issues or something then good. There's a youtube video about those kind of crazies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
I struggle with this a lot. My life is so focused on problem-solving that my mind doesn't generate anything else. Sure I can say a few empty words of empathy and sympathy but that leaves a lot of empty air to fill and using tools is all I got and I can't remember a time when I wasn't like this.
In actual experience, the people in question weren't "out to get me". They complained about things going wrong (due to their own actions), and I listened. Now their failures are my fault, according to some bizarre logic I can't understand, or so I heard through the grapevine.
I don't think any malicious intent was involved. They just tried to protect their fragile egos, and I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also, I was stupid enough to listen.
There's the other side of this; If you're a constant complainer and you don't want to hear other people's advice or perspective - but just want them to commiserate with you, take it into account that it requires a lot of patience, energy and good intention from the other person to contain you - especially if you're constantly doing this. Complaining can easily become addictive, by which point you will see the whole world negatively, and might push those around you further away.
I rarely even believe in "advice", mostly people will just know and do what they want. The collection of learning from their experiences informs those decisions nearly 100%.
The most important reason why I give unsolicited advice -- is to get feedback on my own advice (what mistakes does my advice contain?)
If a person does not want to discuss my advice - they cannot give me feedback about my advice.
If I cannot get that feedback - why do I need that person in my life in the first place?
So when I give unsolicited advice -- I implicitly encourage people I do not need in my life - to disconnect from me. That frees my attention to people who are good with using advise as a tool for improvement.
I was told last year I can be way too optimistic / silver-lining-finding in negative situations. I used to always look for the solution to a problem as opposed to providing whatever the sharer of that problem wanted (usually validation/assurance).
It has been somewhat difficult to turn off that "always helping" part of me - and to be frank it will probably never go away completely which I don't think is a bad thing - but substantial progress has been made.
This is very hard, especially when you make ground-breaking strides in life and notice someone making the same mistakes you made previously. I personally had the epiphany last year that a woman's attraction to you cannot be bought or negotiated. It's a conscious effort to keep my mouth shut when seeing other men breaking their backs trying to buy their way into a woman's heart with wild experiences and fancy gifts.
I lost a friend by giving unsolicited advice. They complained to me about being tired/feeling unwell for the umpteenth time and I suggested they take better care of themselves. I was lambasted for giving, "unsolicited advice."
I doubt that this is really your problem; more likely that you're trying to fix people in a grating way. Try saying something like "have you ever considered ___" and asking if they'd like to learn more.
Thank you. Honestly, this is something I already learnt but I hearing it with such clarity from a stranger makes me feel like I’ll stick to it better. I am a “fixer” and it’s no surprise I code :-/
It is probably better to offer "if you need some help with X I have some experience with it". If they come back to you, you are then free to give advice. Otherwise shut up!
> not give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers.
I strongly disagree here. Friends should try and help friends IF they have the skills to do so. And we should all try and learn how, while recognising our limitations (I'm an engineer stereotype so I don't pretend to myself I am very skilled).
I agree that knowing when to keep your mouth shut is obligatory, and I completely agree it is extremely difficult to help without alienating.
You should know some people who do have the skills to gently and successfully help others, often older and less obvious. I personally try and learn that skill by copying their tact and non-judgement. Beware that many people completely lack the skills even though their job should need it (I've seen nurses, psychologists, social workers etc with nearly zero ability - Dunning Kruger?).
> People will ask for advice if they really want it
Yet there are plenty of counter-examples, especially when people lack the insight to even see their own problems.
> I’ve lost friends over this
I've risked losing friends over this when I've felt strongly about it. Take time to myself to think about whatever the issue is. Losing a friend can be better than not trying to help a friend.
Acquantances are different: personally I let most people do what they will - who am I to judge their path? How can I help if I don't know them well, and I am not around as needed? I guess there are people that can and do help in a short encounter, but either they are uncommon or I don't recognise the skill.
People will ask for advice if they really want it. People are not “broken pieces of code” begging to be fixed.
I’ve lost friends over this, until one dear friend pointed this out to me in a “look, I have to tell you something really really important” manner.