> I think its because they are used to shitty dough.
Whaaaaat? The best and only original Pizza is the thin stone oven baked one, please visit Naples to experience it.
The thick fake ones you can also call pizza because they are round, but it is just stuff on shitty sugar white bread, ludicrous to me you just don't eat a toast or a baguette then
> Pizza is an American invention (at least as we eat it now).
"We" meaning Americans, which are a minuscule part of world population, and a less minuscule but still small amount of world pizza eaters. It's like Venezuelans claiming baseball is a Venezuelan sport.
> Italian pizza is a completely different thing and America has spent a lot more time refining the idea of a pizza in the first place so American pizza is more advanced.
I see you got confused and used the wrong words. Instead of "refining" you probably should use "defiling", and instead of "advanced" you probably should use "degraded".
> So those flat pizzas aren't really what pizza is anymore.
I'm afraid the land of deep fried, sugar imbued everything is not in any position to claim what pizza is or is not.
This is probably the most blatant case of appropriation I've seen ever. You have every right to take a pizza and pervert it as your pleasure, but to claim that now you make the true pizza is so smug, and so ignorant that it baffles me.
As I said in other comment, I don't know why, but it is a typical American trait for some reason, being smugly ignorant.
Ignorants are everywhere, but that cultural thing, "we are the best country in the world, the chosen people" that seeps through American culture, makes American ignorants specially smug.
Perhaps you're not aware that the number of Italian-Americans is almost half of the population of Italy. My two favorite pizza shops in my town? They're both owned and run by Italian families. This is the norm, not the exception. They even grow their own tomatoes! This isn't always the case for the national pizza chains, but you'll be hard-pressed to find an American claiming these chains are their favorite pizza (sadly, they do exist - but they're not the majority!)
It was Italian Americans who developed the New York Slice. It was Sicilians who developed the Chicago Deep Dish. You call it cultural appropriation. I call it immigrants bringing their food with them and further developing it.
Does that make pizza American? Well, I've noticed most of what the english-speaking world calls "pizza" is actually a pizza of Italian-American origin, not the Neapolitan pizza hailing from Naples. I think this is what the OP was referring to.
Things have changed! I did a search of best pizza in London and all the pies pictured, save for one, was definitely Italian pizza. The one that was not was described as US-style. On the plus side - it looks like you have a lot of great pizza available to you! You can even get US-style pizza if you so desire and thank goodness it appears to be my favorite kind of American pizza - the NY slice! (they claim you can get it at Joe Public). I have the opposite problem - getting a bona fide Italian pizza in my part of the world is difficult. Then again, getting a good NY slice is difficult around here. I'm in the U.S. Midwest and our local pizza options are dominated by the Chicago style, Detroit style, and Columbus style. But the NY style and Italian styles are my favorites! You've got it made, mate!
I have been to both USA and Italy and ate the specific style of pizza in each country. I regard American pizza as a regression. When someone says pizza I assume Italian style. They can shove the American style in a place where the sun does not shine (oven!) as in I ain't paying for it. I will pay a good amount for an Italian style pizza though.
According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British? It was invented by chefs in a different country than their own, likely then adjusted by those chefs to what they perceived that the local market wanted. In contrast, I mean, to being cooked "The Way It Has Always Been Done" in their country's tradition?
The Wiki page even mentions more classical/historical dishes from the norhern Indian area, that are thought to have inspired tikka masala. That, to me, makes it even more clear that the dish is new.
If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish?
[2]: I'm just making up an example here on the spot.
[3]: A love which is, of course, shared by large parts of the rest of the world in our own fashion, not trying to point the finger at (a nuclear superpower of 330 M people) y'all in any way.
>According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British?
First of all that is not a well-established origin story, but more like an urban legend. There are multiple conflicting versions of this same urban legend where multiple different restaurants claim to have invented the dish in the same way. And the restaurant chain (Moti Mahal) from one of these versions had been serving a virtually identical dish in their Delhi restaurant since the 1950s, ten years before any of these supposed origin stories. I will let you come to your own conclusions about what scope for authenticity that leaves for these stories.
>If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish?
In your case at least you will be doing some "fusion" or "innovation" right? What exactly is the "fusion" or "innovation" in chicken tikka masala? Can anyone of sound mind actually claim that chicken tikka masala and butter chicken are two completely different dishes?
While we are making up examples on the spot, here is a more accurate one. If I start making pizzas in India and because mozzarella is hard to find here, just use processed cheese instead and may be put more chilis on top to suit Indian tastes, does the dish stop being pizza?
There has to be some reasonable limitation on how little you modify something before you get to call it a new "invention".
> If I start making pizzas in India and because mozzarella is hard to find here, just use processed cheese instead and may be put more chilis on top to suit Indian tastes, does the dish stop being pizza
No, but if you call that pizza something like Pizza Kalari would it then be wrong to say that Pizza Kalari is an Indian invention?
>No, but if you call that pizza something like Pizza Kalari would it then be wrong to say that Pizza Kalari is an Indian invention?
I already answered your question in the next line in my comment -- There has to be some reasonable limitation on how little you modify something before you get to call it a new "invention".
Besides, no Indian would feel the need to do that because, unlike the British, we are quite comfortable in our culinary identity. And most Indians would not respond well to such marketing. In fact, things like Pizza and Burger fill pretty much the exact opposite niche in India where eating very crappy versions of these western foods seems to have an aspirational value to it.
Recipe for butter chicken: roasted pieces of tandoori chicken in a tomatoey butter based sauce.
Recipe for chicken tikka masala: roasted pieces of tandoori chicken in a tomatoey cream based sauce.
As is often the case with cultural appropriation, the real innovation by the appropriator was the marketing. In my view, this is what probably happened: multiple restaurants found the fake origin story a profitable and interesting marketing tool and judging by how popular indian food is in the UK today, it obviously worked.
I have the perfect example for discussion here. "Swedish meatballs, IKEA style", by an Indian Youtube cook, made out of chicken and with ginger, garlic and garam masala. By all means, they are meatballs, but Swedish, they are not.
Well, it was created by Bangladeshi people according to Wikipedia so I'll have to go with Bangladesh. If I hade not known this then my first guess would have been India, but I prefer not to guess so I ask instead.
Oh, it says so in the Wikipedia. It certainly must be true!
Although it this case, it is not even true that the Wikipedia actually says that. Did you even read the article or are you just here to troll? Did I accidentally wander into reddit by mistake?
[The Wikipedia recounts several different versions of the urban legend. Three different sources with three different versions one where the chef was Bangladeshi, one where the chef was Indian, and another where the chef was Pakistani.]
You are free to go through my comment history and draw your own conclusions.
So now it can be from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. It doesn't really help your case that it's an Indian dish, perhaps we should call it a Southeast Asian dish instead?
>You are free to go through my comment history and draw your own conclusions.
I can also just draw my own conclusions from the interaction I am having with you right now.
>So now it can be from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan.
No, the urban legends noted in the Wikipedia say that it could be from those places.
Butter Chicken was actually invented in Delhi in a restaurant called Moti Mahal in the early 1950s by Punjabi migrants. CTM is too similar a dish to Butter Chicken to be called a new dish, let alone an "invention".
> I can also just draw my own conclusions from the interaction I am having with you right now.
It does explain your first emotion of being offended, you seem very easily offended.
> Butter Chicken was actually invented in Delhi in a restaurant called Moti Mahal in the early 1950s by Punjabi migrants. CTM is too similar a dish to Butter Chicken to be called a new dish, let alone an "invention".
Now Chicken Tikka Masala is the same dish as Butter Chicken. Alright then.
My argument has not changed from my first comment. These were the last two sentences from it:
>If I start making pizzas in India and because mozzarella is hard to find here, just use processed cheese instead and may be put more chilis on top to suit Indian tastes, does the dish stop being pizza?
>There has to be some reasonable limitation on how little you modify something before you get to call it a new "invention".
How have I moved the goal post?
In fact I never called CTM and Butter Chicken the same dish - I called them virtually identical and too similar etc, it was a strawman you created and you then proceeded to say that I was moving the goal post when I reiterated my original position.
Please try to keep the quality of discussion higher. If I wanted to have endless discussions with argumentative people who have no ability to read, I would go on reddit.
> Can anybody of sound mind make the claim that they are completely different recipes?
!=
> Can anybody of sound mind make the claim that they are different recipes?
You seem to have it backwards, those were your words. Not mine. A little ironic for someone claiming I can't read, but alright. It would be nice if you could keep your emotions in check though, both for your and my sake.
I of course agree that they are similar, that is pretty evident. But that doesn't matter to call it a different dish, e.g. an egg sunny side up is a different dish compared to a scrambled egg even though the ingredients are exactly the same and it's prepared in the same way too, with the only difference being that the egg is mixed/destroyed.
For the sake of argument we can pretend that the sunny side up was invented in India, now a Taiwanese dude comes along and decides to scramble it. Is the new dish an Indian dish? I would disagree with that.
Also which white people? Do the Greeks or Romans count? Because if they do...
The movie industry in the united states is a culture exporter. Probably uncountable examples from just that alone. Surely some of that is both OP's definition of 'White' and appropriated outside its original countries.
I mean it's really not cultural appropriation. Pizza is one of the great American inventions. It was brought over by Italian immigrants and evolved into a main stream staple served the world over, and that's based on the American Pizza, not the Italian one. Hot dogs are similar in that way.
Sorry, but this is absolutely false. The US was not the only country to receive immigrants during the two Italian diasporas [1], and so you are not the only country to develop a taste for Italian cuisine.
Australian pizza descends directly from the Italian style. We do have the American style as well, but it's a minority preference. Our pizza usually looks like this [2]. It's also notable that Starbucks failed to make a dent here [3], because our coffee culture is truer to its Italian roots than yours.
Given the circumstances in which this happened here, it stretches credulity to imagine that the preferences for pizza across Western Europe, South America, and Africa have been filtered through American preferences when Italians have been there making pizza for just as long. Please check your exceptionalism, thanks.
I'm really, honestly curious what reasons you have to believe this. I can't imagine any. It is so much different from my view and the view of the people I usually talk to, that I can't fathom where it comes from.
Is it something you read, something you saw on youtube, your experience travelling to some countries? How do you base your assertions? I'm honestly lost and I'd like to understand.
How can you assert that "Pizza served all over the world is based on the American Pizza, not the Italian one"?
In which other countries would people think of "pizza" as the American style?
Maybe two or three in Southeast Asia. Maybe Canada, but they're weird and mostly their own thing. Don't know anything about Africa, but I would guess they're more like the rest of the world.
Almost all countries have their own variations of pizza. It's a lovely dish.
No, you have really no idea about what you are speaking about.
Doing a proper pizza is quite difficult, all the botched attempts around the world look very similar and are just an awful subpar imitation that you call pizza.
Tomatoes and peppers came from South America, so Italians (and Indians) have been using them for less time.
I think it's just best to accept the fact that almost all food was fusion at some point in time, and there's no reason to think it won't become part of a new fusion going forward.
>I think it's just best to accept the fact that almost all food was fusion at some point in time, and there's no reason to think it won't become part of a new fusion going forward.
What was the fusion in chicken tikka masala?
And come to think of it, what other new dish has the British Indian restaurant industry come up with in the 50-60 years after the chicken tikka masala. Such amazing creativity right at the very start (only a coincidence that it is 99.9% same thing as another dish being sold in Delhi for at least 10 years before) and nothing since? What an incredibly sad story.
> And come to think of it, what other new dish has the British Indian restaurant industry come up with in the 50-60 years after the chicken tikka masala.
But 50-60 years is not a long time. Things do move a lot quicker now that food import routes have made it possible to get most exotic components to most elsewhere places without growing them on-site. But take a step back on what you look at as quintessentially "local" food anywhere and there's always movement. Nations form, crumble and split, peoples migrate, etc.
As does Butter Chicken which was invented in a restaurant in Delhi at least 10 years before CTM's appearance in Britain. Butter Chicken and CTM are 99.9% the same dish. So again, I ask, where exactly is the "fusion" in CTM?
The Portuguese arrived in India in 1498 and brought tomatoes with them. It was used in Indian cooking for centuries before the invention of the CTM. Our recipes did not have to travel to Britain for them to have tomatoes.
SMH. You guys have absolutely no idea how infuriating this is. Trying to teach me about my culture as if you know anything about it.
Winner for most American comment in the thread. There are more people in the EU than the USA, and I think you'd struggle to find many who prefer Chicago Deep Dish to a nice flat Italian. But I wouldn't be surprised if one of them replied to me telling me how wrong I am.
New York is full of the more traditional base but different toppings. Lots of places in Australia are also doing the same. But grand parent is right. The popular vision of pizza is what Italian immigrants exported from the US not what was exported from Italy. And if you want to play the numbers game, go to Asia and ask them what a pizza is.
I’m not sure many people prefer the Chicago deep dish style or “Sicilian pizza”. I’ve not tried either. But dominos and Pizza Hut seem to be some in between thing.
Edit: Rereading mlidners comment and other comments, it's a bit too dismissive of Italian pizza. Italian pizza is still pizza. It's just that American pizza is also pizza. And Swedish pizza is pizza. This is what happens when food is popularised and spread across the world.
'Detroit style' ... shudder technically still pizza, but I don't get the cotton candy like dough or the typical choice of spices.
New York style is fine. California tends to have weird toppings but is also OK. Though IMO pizza requires a 'bread', tomato (usually as a sauce), and cheese, in a 'flat bread' style format.
Thick or thin can all be good, and every type is going to have it's fan, even if that person happens to hate some component or another.
I think the tomato is not totally necessary. You can get a pizza with a white sauce (Bechamel?), ricotta, and garlic at some of the places around here. I don't think it is a weird American chain thing, if I remember the story correctly my mom first encountered it overseas...
"Pizza Bianca" is very common kind of pizza in Italy: no tomato, with mozzarella, sometimes ricotta; commonly offered with a variety of toppings, often prosciutto.
There are more American types of pizza than Chicago Deep Dish (though I do love that as well). And yes the most common type of Pizza in Europe is also based on the American invented version, not the Italian one. It was reverse imported back into Europe from America.
As someone who has been looking all over Sweden for American pizza (specifically NY style for sake of variation) closer than the few Dominos franchises which exist, I'm rejecting that claim.
Neapolitan pizza is great, American pizza is great, Swedish pizza (both kebab and otherwise) is great, it's just that if you're going to claim something is "more" pizza than something else, I'm going to give it to Italy.
The only thing that the Americans invented is that cardboard stuff full of toppings that you outrageously call pizza, because you were not able to cook a proper pizza.
Eerm sorry, either misunderstanding something, but the first point sounds like totally incompetent POing and classical overengineering (though here we have the PO wanting to show off, to overengineer is the engineer's job please!!) even before the realization that the CEO just wanted to share an idea?
I mean a simple "let hires watch a video about our product" is just about saving some repetitive time... who asked for a "video onboarding solution"? And let the full tech team work on that for two weeks, jeeez! Be happy noone else noticed that wasted time and fired you?
A motivated PO could do this on his own if he has a little bit knowledge and the right tools in his spare hours (at least ours could)...should be good enough just for new hires.
Or maybe better delegate that to some marketing guy that maybe even already has video material and who is done within half a day??
Yep, guilty as charged and I look back on this experience and see a lot of things that could have been done differently.
To clarify, the video idea was about new users of the product not internal hires, so the production quality would need to be higher.
These days I'd probably whip up a Retool-style intro video using Loom + Wistia in a day or so.
I'm more suprised that a PM can up and change what a dev team is working on with such frivolity, especially one whos so green. Typically I'd rather get a commitment from a developer or development team, and expect them to ask why this random thing trumps what is being displaced.
> This is merely whitewashing the fact that Covid isn't dangerous for most people
The percentages to whom at what age were pretty clear and not whitewashed from the very beginning, but you whitewashing the fact that still the 15M number would have been much higher without your complained heavy-handed responses? So easy to make your statement now in the aftermath, but it is even still wrong?
And what proof do you have of that? Covid still spread like wildfire even with the heavy-handed responses. Hence why most western countries vaccinated then just gave up once Omicron hit. Covid's still here, the numbers are still higher than in early waves, yet restrictions are gone in most countries and life goes on.
It's not hard to believe that 11M of the 15M number was caused by 100M+ being added to those in extreme poverty, plus the effects on those who were already that poor. Versus thinking actual Covid deaths were undercounted by 3.5X...
Sweden had problems integrating large swaths of their refugee populations who now live in newly high crime enclaves. I don’t think refugees are comparable to a well thought out professional immigration system though.
Brainstorming meetings are usually a fail anyway, resulting in the lowest common denominator solution chosen, or the one of the loudest/strongest persons in the room. Much more superior is tasking the right person (or duo/trio) with thinking through it and proposing one solution or alternatives with trafeoffs.
"Brainstorming meetings" so often for people who want to spread responsibility for bad decisions without admitting they have no clue even beyond the problem :(
If you go into a brainstorming session with the expectation that you will choose anything, you're right, they are usually going to fail. If you go into them with the sole purpose of exploring a problem space and gathering a diversity of viewpoints, but not evaluating ideas, they can be amazingly valuable. My other two points of advice are to:
1) Keep them short (30-45 minutes). Do them just before lunch so people have a hard stop but also an opportunity to keep the discussion going in an even less structured way.
2) Keep them small (3-5 people). If you've got a dozen people you want to include, break it up, and then if you need/want, do some follow ups where you can group people differently and iterate on some earlier ideas.
Brainstorming asynchronously on a shared doc of some sort (google doc, miro board, even slides) is way better. Kick off with a meeting to set some parameters and answer questions, then let everyone enter ideas at their leisure for a week and regroup to dicuss.
The most effective seems to be to do the first round independently, IE each person come with their 2-3 best ideas before collaboration. Otherwise there's a strong tendency to just +1 existing ideas rather than think independently.
I was going to say this exactly. We've started doing this recently and it's worked really well.
We'll start off with a topic and give everyone, say, 15 minutes to write ideas in the doc on their own. Then take the next 15 minutes to read digest what everyone else wrote, and then rest of the time to discuss as a group.
It's great because it gives everyone a chance to think through the topic and share their perspective, but also you can quickly see the common themes.
I feel the same way. There is even a culture of 'how to run successful brainstorming sessions' at my employer (sometimes called sprints). I have never once enjoyed that process, and I have never seen the result of those sessions be worthwhile or any better than just sitting down for 15 mins 1:1 with team members and talking through the problem. My feeling is that extroverts love them because it's a social gathering at work. I work in user experience.
The responsibility of whatever topic is on the team’s (not on individuals). So if a decision must be made then the whole team should feel responsible for it.
And because all that is true and soon there will be no other functions, neither ways to implement them nor run them, they also did this gross hijack of the lambda term..
(Yah I'm mad that the title wasn't at least "AWS Lambda functions" - isn't "serverless" a funny enough name on its own for that domain?)
Could you please read the whole article, maybe also some general literature about Neptune and Earth from some other allknowing x-ogists, and then reread what you just postulated here? Please?
psssssst!! but yeah, buy cheap, sell expensive to Europe, while claiming high ethics and all for their independence :D typical win-win-win (just for us though..)
Whaaaaat? The best and only original Pizza is the thin stone oven baked one, please visit Naples to experience it.
The thick fake ones you can also call pizza because they are round, but it is just stuff on shitty sugar white bread, ludicrous to me you just don't eat a toast or a baguette then