I call bullshit, sir. Ruby is objectively less strange and more consistent than Python. Some has to do with the fact that Python is older - hence has more baggage to carry. A lot of it, though, just has to do with poor/missing design choices. Specifics?

- ruby 'block' passing convention is much cleaner and more powerful than python's 'for'/iterators.

- python's global functions are stranger and more ad-hoc than Ruby's strict object-orientation.

- ruby's mixins > python's multiple inheritance

- python underscore (and double underscore) naming conventions to overcome simple language features

Don't get me wrong: i love python - but primarily because of the faster execution and larger community - not because of the language itself.

Python's iterators are more usable in many situations than the Ruby block system. I can return an iterator, stick it in a variable, call another function with it that returns another iterator, and so on.

Python's classes also seem cleaner and less magical than Ruby's. For example, a method on a class is just an attribute that happens to be a method. Much more intuitive than Ruby in my opinion.

I'm also fond of Python's idea that "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it".

I agree that Python does have its fair share of strangeness, but that fades away with time (you don't notice it).

Personally I find blocks far more intuitive than Python's iterators and generators, but that is a subjective thing.

WRT Magical Classes, I'm not a fan of everything being stored in a dict. It seems grossly under-engineered to expose the underbelly as a basic "dumb" object; at the very least, it should've been a "Class Metadata" object with attached support methods to make it easier (safer?) to inspect or update.

And lastly: there is NEVER just one way to do it!! Witness the confusion n00b's feel over the join() method: ",".join([LIST]) where the more intuitive would probably be [LIST].join(",")... but if you MUST have join() in the string module, why not support the latter as a redirect to the former?

Seriously: this sort of dogma can make certain kinds of algorithms very messy to code.

However, my biggest beef with Python is that I seem to have to write a metric buttload of boilerplate and end up with something very Java-esque... <sigh>

I completely disagree with having to write lots of boilerplate and java-esque code. I've written huge amounts of Python, and seeing Java after that really made me wince. What does Python lack that makes you feel you need boilerplate?

I don't think the one-way-to-do-it thing is that dogmatic, really. It does make code nicer when you don't have to be aware of various aliased methods, and there are less ways of making identical code look different.

    >> [1,2,3].each
    => #<Enumerable::Enumerator:0x801820f10>
    >> RUBY_VERSION
    => "1.8.7"

    >> RUBY_VERSION
    => "1.8"
    >> require "enumerator"
    => true
    >> [1,2,3].each
    => #<Enumerable::Enumerator:0x29326940>

Having ploughed through several tutorials, I did not find Ruby particularly "elegant", or its syntax particularly obvious. Much of it seemed ad hoc, thrown together, in particular when there were several different ways of doing something, and it seemed to be the philosophy of the language to provide all of them. I did not find its constructs as intuitive and natural as claimed, trying out simple coding examples proved as frustrating when things didn’t do what you’d suppose they’d do...

(http://www.bitwisemag.com/2/What-s-Wrong-With-Ruby)

I actually gave Ruby a shot, going through the interactive tutorial on http://tryruby.hobix.com. I couldn't do it very long, however, because it was completely ridiculous. In what world does it make sense for hash keys to double as string grep? For instance:

    my_string['foo'] = 'bar'

    "5" * 2 == "55" 

    2 * "5"

Firstly starting with my_string['foo'] = 'bar', this is a syntax that is used a lot in Ruby for anytime that you wish to recover a subset of a collection - you can use it with a Dir object for example to recover a subset of directories/files, or in the case of a hash, to recover the object stored at the key. The thing is that you need to think about it as being a subset operator, rather than an index operator.

The exclamation point at the end of a method name has no syntactic meaning - it is simply a naming convention used by the standard libraries to indicate when the method mutates the object or not. Same same for method names ending with a question mark, it's just a convention to indicate that the response will be a boolean.

As for the whole "5" * 2 vs. 2 * "5", I must admit to not understanding where you're coming from. I don't see how you could expect any other kind of behaviour from an object orientated language. Personally I don't like over-riding arithmetic operators for non-number types, for precisely this reason, but hey, some people like it, so why not?

Integers converting to strings? I think every language has that no? I mean there's always something like: sprintf(myStringPtr, "%d", myInteger); or cout << myInteger;

etc etc

By making this a standard method on all classes (to_s), Ruby makes it really easy to dump a class to a serial format, which is very useful for debugging, as an example.

I get the impression that you simply didn't spend enough time with Ruby to come to understand its idioms, in which case, you're not really in a position to effectively criticise the language...

A lot of Ruby's conventions simply scream "ambiguity" to me. A "subset of a collection" is extremely ambiguous; if there is more than 1 foo in my_string, does it always get the first? How do I get the rest? my_string['foo'][2] or something? I can't even intuitively make something up which makes sense to me. Perhaps there isn't a way to get the others, which I suppose would be in line with Python, which doesn't supply a string method to find all occurrences at once... but how do I offset it?

I can see where standardized methods like to_a can be more convenient, but they also open up the possibility for unlimited ambiguity. What does Foo.to_a do for your Foo class? It could do anything! There's no way I could rely on these methods to do something across the board unless I know your class conforms to some Interface (do Ruby folks use/have Interfaces?). In Python, if I do

  [foo]

Yes, there's no way to get the other matches using [] as far as I know, it's just a generalization of being able to pass various types to it; Fixnum, Range, Regexp.. I don't see the harm in doing something with String too. If you wanted to extract multiple items, you'd use something like String#scan, or if you wanted to do a global replace, String#gsub, which can also accept a code block to perform computed replacements.

I can see where standardized methods like to_a can be more convenient, but they also open up the possibility for unlimited ambiguity. What does Foo.to_a do for your Foo class?

As of 1.9, it does this:

    NoMethodError: undefined method `to_a' for Foo:Class

In Python, if I do `[foo]` Then foo is now a list.

You do the exact same thing in Ruby, though if you're wanting to cast your argument like the old to_a did, you use Array(), which won't turn [] into [[]]. If you want a number, Integer() or Float() will raise an exception if they can't give you one.

Python has a __rmult__ method. If you do A * B, first it internally calls A.__mult__(B) then if that raises TypeError, it tries B.__rmult__(A). It's pretty elegant, I think. For Ruby, it wouldn't look as nice to do A.r* though, I guess, but it would be a nice bit of functionality.

Well yeah like others have been saying, python is more attractive to new users is probably partly why it's more popular. You don't need to work as hard to understand its idioms, it's more readable by newbies (by anyone), etc.

You need to remember that EVERYTHING is an object, there are no basic/literal types at all; in this case, "5" is really just syntactic sugar for creating a "5" String object, 2 is syntactic sugar for creating the "2" Integer (Number?) object, and the " * " operator is syntactic sugar for the " * " method of the "5" String object == ' "5".times(2) ' (which is similar to Perl's ' "5" x 2 ' construct).

The String class supports a " * " method which creates n copies of it's string value, and concat's them together into a new String object, but the Integer class does not.

Many "basic" objects have explicit conversion methods, but will also frequently support implicit conversion where it makes sense.

You're calling a method on a string, so you got the string doubled. Seems to make sense to me.

Obviously in this case the order of the arguments matter.

It's not obvious in terms of intuitiveness, no. Why not extend the Integer class to know to call mystring's * method when their order is reversed? That would be intuitive.

[1] As I wrote two years ago: http://www.halostatue.ca/2007/03/17/whats-wrong-with-bitwise...

You know that under the covers in Python str(1) works by calling (1).__str__(), right? That's why you can make str(my_custom_class) work.

During FISL, a couple days ago, I witnessed something that really bothered me. It was a presentation comparing Rails with Seaside (which is, by itself, like comparing racing cars with subarines) and the arrogance of the Rails guy dismissing Seaside, Squeak and Smalltalk was very uncomfortable.

It seemed the room was too small to fit all the egos inside it.

I considered staying until the end and asking a couple questions to demolish the presenter, but I decided it would not be worth it. His belief on the inherent superiority of Ruby and Rails over any other language and framework, past, present and future, bordered on the religious.

Zope 3.x (Plone runs on top of Zope 2.x) is a very nice application server. I wonder if it would be possible to make it work seamlessly with things like Hadoop instead of ZODB.

If Rails weren't around, it would be much easier to enjoy Ruby without having to use it in isolation. Then again, a whole lot of people wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place.

Ruby lived fast and died young. If you don't want to use Python, learn Haskell.

How can you say that a language with active development and an active community has "died"? Seems like an odd conclusion to make, IMHO.

And it is really easy to enjoy Ruby without Rails. A friend and I have been doing it for a couple years now.

Sweet! I am making a living using a zombie, undead, from-beyond-the-grave programming language!

I better hook up that USB Ouija board and get coding.

It's difficult to accept your rational argument when you include stuff like this.

And while it certainly isn't a fault of the language, it definitely influences it usage for some people.

In any community of size, you get good seeds and bad seeds. Python is not immune to this.

Looking at some of the drama and prima donna action in the Rails community (from a distance) just made me sad and grateful that my corner of Python (scientific computing) doesn't have those sorts of issues.

That's a decision you make for yourself, not an absolute truth.

And yes, a lot of us pythonistas view him with suspicion.

Ruby developers (Rubyons?) were renowned for typical Japanese self-effacement when it was becoming popular, which I think was some of the appeal... I guess what goes around comes around...

:)

How so? It's mot like Python is 10 or 20 years older, so how do you determine the "far more" part?

And of what value would this difference in maturity be? COBOL is "far more" mature than Python. Is that a big win for COBOL?

Once a language reaches some reasonable age and general wide-spread usage, points about maturity seem silly.

(On reflection, I suspect you're just trolling.)

On the flip side, I am not aware of any significant impact of Ruby in commercial development that is not web-driven. When we bid on projects and talk to prospective customers, we're typically making a case against Java and C++. I can't recall a single instance where someone seriously asked us about Ruby. (We've had more inquiries about KDB and K, that abomination of a language.)

So, just my $.02 as a scientific software developer.

For instance?