This statement is funny. You seem to think you will make money of your first startup :)

For most people entering the startup world today... find a girl with a comfy couch that you can sleep on when you're broke.

In all seriousness, you need to assess where you really think you want to end up.

I got married fairly young. Started a couple of companies and have participated in many more. My wife is (mostly) understanding, and more importantly intelligent and a good reality check for most of my schemes and ideas. I couldn't imaging getting through some of the situations I've been in without having someone who is knowledgeable and unbiased to discuss these things with.

Figure out what you want to be when you grow up, and screen for a person who fits those criteria.

(tip: you can't screen for it)

If I tried really hard, I'm sure I could work out an exit/IPO into it too.

But if you and your spouse love each other for being motivated, self-actualized, driven, and passionate, then a startup and marriage can be wonderfully complimentary.

I actually really liked the movie Revolutionary Road for this reason -- it showed what happens when a guy who should be doing a startup ends up taking a safe job because he thinks it's what his marriage demands of him. In reality his wife was attracted to him because of his passion and his vision and she only came to loathe the soft, mushy, 9 to 5er that he became. Not a perfect parallel with the startup world but a great exploration of what it means to be "a man" outside of the narrow confines of man as simple uninspired breadwinner or corporate yes-man.

Bottom line: If your relationship thrives on the creative life-energy of passion, work and drive, then go for it. If not, why would you want to marry such a person?

This was one of my least favorite movies of all time until I read your take on it. Didn't think of comparing it to the startup life.

Guess what, I found the perfect girl a year before I started the startup life and she totally supports it. I'm not sure if I could have done what I do without leaning on her and vice versa.

It is about the right person, not the right time or order. You can't plan when or how you are going to meet the right person.

Starting companies is a huge commitment and raising children is an unbelievable stress load. The combination is a marriage killer.

With all that said, a good mate is a good thing to have.

This is such a true statement, yet everything you see on TV, movies, the web, etc. ignores it.

Marriage is a lot of work. Fun work and worthwhile, but sometimes the person you love, well, you just don't like that much right now. You have to work through problems. You just can't ignore them and hope they go away. I wouldn't trade it for anything, and a good partner can change your universe. But it is nothing like mass media has prepared you for.

No, all I have with my wife is love, a deep agreement on many of the important issues (including how money should be spent), an agreement with how many children we should have (broadly) and when and broad agreement on how to raise them, the ability to be friends with each other and work through arguments, and other such things. And a commitment. Love is primarily a choice, not a feeling.

If there's a part of you rebelling and saying that sounds cold and unfeeling, kill that part. That's propaganda, bad social programming, and it will lead to exactly the sort of pain and failure you'd expect when you shut off your brain for the one of the most important decisions of your life.

It's not that feeling don't enter into it at all. I've got and had all kinds of other feelings. (You can't tell because this is a text message and it's too easy to read it as emotion-free.) I'm not saying that feelings or emotions are bad; I'm saying that this one particular feeling is treacherous beyond belief. If you are lucky enough to be infatuated with someone whom you can have a relationship with, more power to you, but consider it a bonus, not a prerequisite.

(I also think that if you do know what you are doing, some such things can be decided surprisingly quickly. Some "love at first sight" stuff does work out because it doesn't necessarily take two years to figure out whether you've got this sort of deep compatibility. Sometimes two days is enough. I don't recommend that approach, but it can work.)

with edits: Took me too long to find it, I got beat.

http://www.divorcereform.org/rates.html

Also, "all US marriages" is not the same thing as "all US first marriages." A person divorced twice and divorcing for the third time is different from a person divorcing for the first time. That has little to do with the poor judgment of youth.

http://www42.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=united+states+annual+...

Not as easy as you might think:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=610896

If you have a good idea, solid team, you can execute on great ideas with 40-60 hrs a week. If you're spending more, you're not managing your resources properly.

I really appreciate my gf, she helps me relax and take my mind off of work, so that when I am working, I can be twice as productive.

For example, if you start off working on your start-up on the side to check your assumptions, that'll suck up a lot of your common free time.

Then, if you work full time on your start-up, you might find that a lot of your essential networking and meetings happen outside of normal office hours. So if your girlfriend is working office hours you might find that you've got a lot of flexibility, just not when she does. So then you find yourself busy when she's free and free when she's busy. Not a recipe for success.

Regarding the kids, you have no idea how much you'll love your kids when you have them. But if she decides to go, she won't care one bit about that.

And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "Ah, but you don't know her. She's different. She'd never do that." I'll tell you what: people change -- in unexpected ways. Especially after the kids come.

Do some research. Google for "dads", "divorce", "custody", etc.

Folks, finding the person you want to spend the rest of your life with - you know, the person that is going to stick around to wipe your... okay I'll say drool... when you are 80 and have Alzheimers - that is a much more unpredictable proposition than what you chose to do with your professional life. If you are trying to time the former to the latter, you are taking a big risk that the right person won't be around when you decide you are ready for them.

Date. If you are still dating after 1-2 years and like it, move in, or else break up and try again. If you are still living together and like it after 3 years get hitched, or break up and try again. By all means do not be hasty - but please do not overplan this.

If those aren't your priorities though, then I would agree, marriage probably isn't a good option for you. If you view marriage as "what you can get" rather than "what you can give/share" then it will not work and will result in unhappiness.

Marriage (by which I mean the contract enforced by your state) adds nothing to the mix beyond a massive financial liability (for the man) if the relationship ends. Read this article for an example of the bad results of marriage:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/magazine/17foreclosure-t.h...

In reality most people in the US aren't as inclined to have life partners without the marriage part. And frankly, there is something special about professing your commitment to another person in front of your community that somehow makes your bond with your partner stronger.

Is marriage required? Probably not. But I think you are missing a good part of it by claiming financial reasons for despising marriage.

One gets big tax breaks for owing money to a bank for a mortgage loan or for having children, but not simply for being married. Hence the term "marriage penalty".

If you do the math you actually find that married folk pay less US federal income taxes in certain situations and more in others. (CA is the same - I don't know about other states) The result depends on the distribution of income between the two people

If both people make roughly the same amount of money, being married results in more taxes. If one person makes all the money, being married results in less taxes.

It turns out that a marriage differential (different taxes for married and unmarried couples) is a mathematical consequence of any tax system that has progressive marginal rates and treats a married couple's income as a lump sum.

That said, the marriage differential can be "married is always cheaper", "married is always more expensive", or "some times married is cheaper and some times it isn't" (as is the case with US and CA). It all depends on the various rates and deductions.

Other than the possibility where that could be interpreted as not trusting your partner, that sounds like a great idea from a "CYA" perspective.

Of course, it could only really work if the relationship you have with your father is very solid. You wouldn't want him kicking you out of "your" house because of some arbitrary conflict.

I suppose marriage is what you make of it. I consider being married to be a different state than not being married. I don't see any state change happening from writing a poem. But there is one with getting tattoos.

Whether or not you get married in the eyes of the state or a church I don't think is important. But I do think that promise is important, and it is further weighted if done publicly.

Now that I'm on the other side, I've seen that neither the church, nor the state, nor the social network of community witnesses (nor the legal commitment of having adopted her two sons for that matter) could stand in the way of her caprice-driven dalliances.

And, living in a "No Fault Divorce" state meant that her violation of the terms of the marriage provided me no benefit or protection when it came time to kick her to the curb out of self-preservation.

Society, with all its witnessing, was nowhere to be found. Everybody wants to come to the wedding. Nobody wants to come to the divorce.

Next time I'll opt for the tattoo. ;-)

I've always been a "it's just a piece of paper, you don't need it to signify real commitment" -- but I was wrong. I was surprised, myself.

Now, it is a contract between you, your intended spouse, and "The State". And therefore when you marry you are giving the State some measure of control over your life.

Seems more like a contract between you and your spouse that has been approved of by the state.

If they had been married for 10 years then there would be Social Security implications etc. Plus I think they still force you to take a blood test ect.

PS: Separation of Church and State my ass.

It's one thing to have both people say we agree to split property like this it's another to say you have to wait and jump though a lot of hoops to get divorced.

Consider two people that want a divorce, but can't really afford separate households at this point and don't want to sell the house when the economy is bad. Granted this is not the "normal" path but plenty of people get divorced without hating each other.

Keep in mind that with things like divorce and child custody/support, couples change their minds (sometimes a lot). Our court systems can't handle this (certainly not the costs). Over the years, our societies have required legislatures to define rules and processes for lumping everyone into a process. I don't think the state really wants to be involved in divorce cases, but there are reasons they are (property, debts, retirement benefits, child custody/support, etc).

Like it or not, state courts have to be involved in divorces. For some couples that can handle it without the courts, well, like education, they get dragged down into the mean.

And there's no blood test in VA anymore (nor DC for that matter).

I'm pretty sure a marriage + a solid pre-nuptial agreement would put you on much better legal/financial ground than a "committed non-martial relationship" without a written contract.

And, really, this is pretty basic legal advice. You should always have an independent, disinterested lawyer review contracts before you sign them.

There is an increasing phenomenon of women choosing to give birth out of wedlock. It's not yet clear if they are having children without a cohabitant partner.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/a-new-tren...

I really think you're being unrealistic if you think women don't care about getting married before having children with someone. You can place whatever value judgments you like on the reasons for that, but to say it isn't the case isn't realistic.

(I'm 15 weeks pregnant, I have no intentions of getting married.)

>I really think you're being unrealistic if you think most women don't care about getting married before having children with someone

  * Children
  * Taxes
  * Commitment

More likely, you should be more concerned that doing your startup first and neglecting relationships means you will burn through your younger years (and younger looks) and won't be able to leverage them when it comes to finding a mate. Then, if your startup fails... oops, no leverage at all.

A marriage is a such a big commitment (10 times bigger if there are kids), that if there is something in your life more important than your marriage, it (probably) won't last.

Some people seem to make this kind of thing work, but I think it's quite rare.

My philosophy is that companies come and go (especially startups), but a loving family will last you a lifetime, and have a much bigger impact on your happiness and wellbeing than success and work.

  age   rate
  <20   11.7%
  -24   38.8%
  -29   22.3%
  -34   11.6%
  -39%   6.5%

But please, don't play the numbers. As someone already said, don't try to plan love.

I think it's kind of funny that we're all seeking statistics on marriage. Where are the romantics on HN?

At any rate, it's still the wrong game to play for the OP.

In your 30s/40s, you are already more or less successful and can have a lot more free time, so you can switch to the basic 9 to 5. And have time for family and kids.

As far as gold diggers etc, just stop showing off your wealth and you'll be fine. Even if you saw Steve Jobs or Bill Gates on the street, chances are you'd never think it was them. But put them in a Ferrari and you'll probably connect the dots. Worst case scenario, you can go James Bond on this issue. Have your mansion and the Ferrari in one town. And a rented apartment and a Honda in the next one.

I saw Eric Schmidt on University Ave in Palo Alto last year, and I didn't need a Ferrari to believe it. He was actually driving a Prius.

As marriage relates to a startup or any entrepreneurship, the fact is that you only have so many hours in a day. Most spouses like their mate enough to want to spend some nontrivial amount of time with them. When this time commitment cannot be fulfilled due to wanting to the entrepreneur working insane hours in the basement or whatever else, it will put strain on that relationship. In short, having good personal relationships requires a major time commitment. Any startup or other entrepreneurial project also requires a significant time commitment. Depending on how these are managed or not, it can lead to a successful startup and failed relationship or vice versa. If you take greater care, then you can make both work but that won't be easy. After all, nothing worthwhile is particularly easy.

http://curi.us/blog/post/1168-monogamy

We shouldn't be scared of trying things that aren't best, and if something is genuinely good, it shouldn't fear criticism and rivals. If it's good, it will beat those rivals.

There's something so true in that. There's nothing weaker than a guy that gets furiously jealous if his wife/girlfriend talks to another guy. It's the confident ones that know they are the best that aren't afraid of competition.

Thank you for posting that. A very good read

Edit: on second thought, perhaps it's just a little bit off topic (it talks about marriage, but not with respect to startups). Perhaps it would be better as it's own submission.

There's nothing weaker than a startup founder who gets furiously jealous if his employee aids and abets another company. It's the confident ones that know they're the best that aren't afraid of competition. No reason to get litigious, a little competition is all.

Jealousy is a basic human emotion of paramount importance. Loyalty is a cornerstone of society. I value deviation from the norm as much as the next free spirit, but deviation from this basic principle I will not allow myself ever. There is nothing insecure or weak about the territorial insticts humans associates with things of value. It may have a perfectly sound evolutionary explanation, it has a perfectly sound religious explanation, no matter how you split it, it's there. I don't buy that it's cultural, except may be some manifestations of it. There must exist a core which transcends culture. Perhaps protection of offspring can form one tenet of such core, but I'm no expert and this is not a proof.

Nonetheless, let me give you an example of how jealousy is simply a construct which one can use to describe a particular response to a given stimulus. Let's say one is walking down the street and notices a pile of trash. One, not prodded or otherwise influenced decides to do the "right thing" and remove the trash. The prospect is not pleasant, but one proceeds out of some motivation that is not relevant. Then let's say someone swoops by and picks up the trash and hurries it away. The first individual may very well be relieved of no longer having to deal with the trash, and feel grateful for another's "brazen" act. Let's replace trash with gold. Sure, some people may say: "meh, it's just a pile of gold, let 'em have it!". Some might get very upset. See, here we have jealousy measure a degree to which a given individual can raise their defenses. It's a protection mechanism more than an act of insecurity. Just as carrying a gun to a gun fight is a protection measure. If you chose to bring a knife "cuz you're confident", you'd get a few in the dome and that'd be the end of it. Just as any old general strategy or planning. Granted, one can still lose even with a bazooka, and some can win with a knife, but one had better be prepared regardless.

So back to relationships. If one partner decides that they're liable to "chat someone up and accidentally have sex" they should divorce/separate and carry on. Unless their significant other has agreed that it's normal and is liable to do the same. Those relationships work, they're fine, but they're a contract of sorts. Let's not conflate the desire to keep something special, with the inability to let people "talk to others". If we define "talking to others" as being a precursor to a steamy side life, then we're talking of different things. No one owes anyone anything, unless one has a previous arrangement which forges a contract. However, when we enter a mutual contract with another party, a modicum of self worth is good to keep honest to oneself, and the loved one. Of course people make mistakes, and if they so choose, they can separate and pick a different life. But back stabbing is one of the most weak and worthless acts of human nature. There are amazing stories of couples that not only went through true horrors in their life and remained together, but remained loyal in the face of seduction from a rather "appetizing proposition". I respect, and dare I say even admire such people. Lastly, since it's inevitable that the "self preservation and self interest uber alles" is an always-nascent thought, I would only say this: if one wants polygamy, then there are plenty of partners who also do; pick N.

Sorry for the rant.

Edit: response to your edit:

> We shouldn't be scared of trying things that aren't best, and if something is genuinely good, it shouldn't fear criticism and rivals. If it's good, it will beat those rivals.

I'm not afraid to admit that I'm not perfect and that I experience full range of emotions when it comes to loved ones. Had it been otherwise, had I thought that I was the best thing that ever graced this planet, perhaps then I would have no motivation for jealousy. Likewise I cannot eradicate it, since I see it as innate. Perhaps some people are just not able to experience jealousy at all. Perhaps. I doubt it, but I cannot know, nor can I avoid it. Nor do I know anyone who can. Nor will I ever deny that I do. Best I can hope for is that I'm good enough for the love of my life and that we can go to the end together. If that doesn't work, it was not to be. I can do what I can to keep the relationship working on all fronts, physical and otherwise, but I cannot pretend that nothing better than me can arise. There are truly lucky people who have loved ones that choose what they have, over the greener pastures. We can't all be perfect. Likewise I'm all for experimentation, outside of marriage or a relationship that is, or in a relationship that is predicated on experimentation. I'm just appalled at an apparent justification of betrayal.

I think it's bad to be a 'free spirit' in the sense of wanting to deviate from the norm. I do appreciate variety, but I'd prefer if there was less need to deviate. Radical and counter-intuitive ideas are harder to implement, and it's harder to find associates with those shared values. The point of deviating from the norm is that some normal ideas hurt people or cause problems. At least that's what I think. There is a genuine disagreement about the wisdom of some normal ideas, not just deviation for the sake of being a free spirit.

> If one partner decides that they're liable to "chat someone up and accidentally have sex" they should divorce/separate and carry on.

That's one option but there are lots of others. Richard Feynman made a game out of not cheating on Arline with tempting girls. He enjoyed the challenge. If you don't want to cheat, there are rational ways to accomplish that.

> I'm just appalled at an apparent justification of betrayal.

I think it's bad to betray people. I also think it's generally wise not to make promises that are hard to keep in the first place. One reason is this reduces the number of betrayals that take place. Another reason is that it's hard to predict the future and predict what you will want in the future.

> That's one option but there are lots of others. Richard Feynman made a game out of not cheating on Arline with tempting girls. He enjoyed the challenge. If you don't want to cheat, there are rational ways to accomplish that.

Basically I view change of heart as a normal occurrence. It happens, there are far worse things in life. But I also view betrayal in some of the most negative light possible. Divorce/separate and off you go. I just don't see a solution to suppressing one's urge. If one is convinced they've "finally found the right person" then what next? I don't know, but I do know that to exercise that urge while feigning ignorance is pathetic example of a human malice and weakness. At least hold it until you can separate and inform your former "loved one" of your intentions. Otherwise, if it's a fleeting "crush". Drop it like a hot potato and move on. Why betray? Because it feels good? I don't know. Why make your loved one jealous? Some do it out of spite -- it becomes an endless game of getting back at each other.

> I think it's bad to betray people. I also think it's generally wise not to make promises that are hard to keep in the first place.

There are civil and fruitful means of dissolving a contract. It's just my view that conniving and lying and otherwise being unfaithful is an anathema to reason, trust and a healthy society. That's my view of course, and I don't plan to impose it on others in any way, but I will go to the utmost of my ability to abide by it.

It's just so happens that jealousy is the central emotion that runs through the veins of the aforementioned beast. Human interaction is built on jealousy and it can be either good or bad. I think few other emotions, except perhaps fear, have more influence over our lives, or are as central. I remain suspect when people claim immunity to it.

You can take your time, give the r'ship loads of time to be tested (by travel, financial compromises, living together, sexual compatibility, etc) - if and when you do it, only do it for absolutely the right reasons.

It's harder to undo than it is to do.

(Personally: Married and divorced before 25. Now engaged to someone after 6-7 years together including living together for much of that, and travelling the world for 12 months.)

1) A job you like and are good at 2) A body you like and take care of 3) A marriage & family you invest in and enjoy

I've found that you can have all three, but it requires a lot of flexibility, discipline, and willingness to say no to everything else (which is really just a manifestation of being disciplined).

I don't think marriage and a start-up are always mutually exclusive. In some cases they are, either due to the spouse or the start-up (or yourself, possibly), but if you're willing to be disciplined and set boundaries it's definitely possible.

I speak from personal experience on both counts.

;-)

The guys you mention above all fit into the work is their life mold where they throw themselves into what ever they were doing. This won't surprise anyone but that doesn't really endear yourself to your partner.

I know a very successful entrepreneur who has been married 4 times now. Each one of his wives couldn't stand coming second to work and I'll bet that each one went into the marriage thinking that this time it would be different, that they could change him.

Why do I want to be married?

divorce rates are higher with younger couples. the younger, the higher.

Have you compared the "statistics" you gathered about (male) (hugely rich) founders marriage success ages to the general pool of marriages?

I'm pretty sure I read that more marriages <25 end up in divorce than >25.