I for one appreciated the clarification that it was not mainstream, since sneaking a random controversial take into a comment thread as if it was fact without noting that it's contentious is disingenuous.
No, they don't. If you don't know enough to argue on the merits, don't argue. A count of opinions is not an argument.
> sneaking a random controversial take into a comment thread as if it was fact without noting that it's contentious is disingenuous.
And again, you're justifying your judgment and dismissal based on hearsay. Saying "I refuse to believe it because experts disagree" is fine if you're unable or unwilling to look into an issue yourself, but in that case you have to realize you're basically ignorant.
I realize that we all go through life taking most things on faith, but that also means that you should not cling to the opinions of others as a substitute for thought.
yes they do. for one thing you do not make the rules around here; no one cares what you think counts as suitable grounds for arguing. For another, yes, authority has some merit. Doesn't make it fact, but certainly the prior we ought to assign for "medical authorities are correct" is quite high. Not certainty, but pretty confident, all else being equal.
edit: I see you added "I realize that we all go through life taking most things on faith, but that also means that you should not cling to the opinions of others as a substitute for thought."
Don't worry, nobody's doing that here. It's a question of weighting, not clinging. Maybe you mistook "this is not mainstream" to mean "this is definitely false because it's not mainstream"? It does not mean that. It is just helpful context for evaluating credibility.
> You're asserting that a extremely well-known logical fallacy is not a fallacy.
There are two distinctly different fallacies of appeal to authority (which overlap, since all of the second are also the first), this form is the form which is a deductive fallacy (appeal to status), but not the form that is a fallacy in inductive argument (which is appeal to false authority). It is important to distinguish them because while deductive fallacies are much more clear cut, they are also far less relevant to most real world debate, which rarely is about proving something is true by logical necessity assuming some set of axioms, but that is the only place that deductive fallacies are inappropriate, since all a deductive fallacy is is a form of argument in which the conclusion does not follow from the premise by logical necessity.
There is no logical fallacy in play here. Nobody is saying “the argument is wrong because of who said it”. When assessing the probable significance of an agglomeration of empirical data, it’s valuable to know what experts in the field think about the data and their consensus about the inferences we can draw from it—even if the consensus might be mistaken: because the consensus is usually right.
> There is no logical fallacy in play here. Nobody is saying “the argument is wrong because of who said it”.
The OP literally dismissed the parent based on nothing more than the opinions of others.
> When assessing the probable significance of an agglomeration of empirical data, it’s valuable to know what experts in the field think about the data and their consensus about the inferences we can draw from it—even if the consensus might be mistaken
I already conceded that, if you have no ability or capacity to think or investigate the issue yourself, it's perfectly fine to defer to the opinions of others. But in doing so, you remain ignorant on the matter.
> because the consensus is usually right.
No. I understand that's a comforting belief -- and even politically charged, today -- but it's just an assertion.
Well yes, exactly: it's just consensuses all the way down. Which is just another way of saying "I feel like it's right and you're wrong, even though I have no actual evidence either way."
But you have to separate the fallacy from it being supportive evidence of other data.
There is a difference from saying X must be true because Y person said it and they're an expert on Z. But when there is consensus between appropriate experts - such as researchers that specialize in this field - and it is in support of other specific evidence it is supporting evidence that the other specific evidence is compelling.
If I have 10 CPAs explaining a specific bit of the tax code to me and they are pointing out the specifics of the tax code, it is not fallacious to note that these people are experts and are pointing to specific evidence that supports their point.
as others have noted, you seem to be unaware of what exactly the fallacy refers to. You might want to look it up. It is not "citing an authority at all" but rather "citing an authority's opinion as though it were logical fact". Which nobody is doing here.
> I for one appreciated the clarification that it was not mainstream, since sneaking a random controversial take into a comment thread as if it was fact without noting that it's contentious is disingenuous.
(emphasis mine)
In other words, you didn't just passively ignore the parent (which would be fine), you posted about it, and not only that, you called it a lie. [1].
When you call something a lie like that, you're making an argument, so you'd better be prepared to bring the evidence.
[1] I realize that you're actually saying that it's "disingenous" that they posted this without some kind of disclaimer that it's a "controversial argument", but to the core of the issue: if you need that disclaimer, you aren't qualified to judge the content. For all you know, it isn't controversial at all.
... What is going on? Yes, that's what it means, that's why I used it. Notice it does not say 'lie' or anything directly synonymous with lying. It's related, sure, but not the same.
You can tell that it's not synonymous with lying because had you said to me "are you saying they're lying?" I would have said 'no'. This is always the case with semantic disagreements: if you want to know if someone intends a certain connotation, you can ask if they would agree with a rephrasing.
The disingenuousness is presenting a non mainstream theory as if it is fact. Anyone reading that initial comment probably has no idea whether "cholesterol and statins are suspect science". Had they said "some people think they're suspect science" there would have been nothing wrong. To claim they're suspect as a fact is disingenuous: it could be true, or it could be that the person posting it is one of those anti-establishment nuts who disagrees with consensus science about everything out of conspiratorial distrust and is constantly smuggling that stance into conversations all over the internet. Since it is very easy to present the state of affairs in a forthright manner, the only reason why someone would present them deceptively is (presumably) something like that. Hence knowing that the view is not mainstream is very useful for evaluating the motives of the original poster.
It's not evidence that they were lying, because that implies intent. No, probably they believe what they wrote. But it's evidence their ability to reason is suspect and possibly corrupted by some ideological motivation and so should be taken less seriously.
Not that I care, really, about any of this. Mostly this kind of antagonism is very frustrating and it's just kinda cathartic to try to shut it down.
My suggestion is that instead of engaging with commenters with your "oo! Logical fallacy! You broke the rules of arguing!" stance you instead try to find some way to productively engage with their actual thoughts. Perhaps figuring out why they said what they said instead of assuming anything you do not understand is a sign of a weak mind that needs to be corrected. You'll find people respond much more warmly to you if you do
You are confusing what "Appeal to Authority" fallacy is. Namely you are ignoring the fallaciousness of it.
The fallacy is where you use an authority in place of evidence. It is not fallacious to refer to consensus or experts.
Else, you end up basically in the "Do your own research"/vaccine denier/climate deniers/flat earth territory. Appeals to experts is not a logical fallacy. It's actually smart, because you get to leverage agreed facts (the earth is round) even though you've never actually been to space to see it for yourself.
I for one appreciated the clarification that it was not mainstream, since sneaking a random controversial take into a comment thread as if it was fact without noting that it's contentious is disingenuous.