People have different idea but roughly the Ukrainian plan seems to be hold the current lines approximately, destroy Russian assets and work on Russia collapsing economically to the extent they have to pull back a bit like their Afghanistan experience.

Anders Puck Nielsen on that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZ56C-f4a8&t=422s That's starting at the Ukrainian plan but it's worth watching the whole vid if you are interested.

Thanks! I'll watch it later.

I am confused why you ask this of the proponents. The proponents think that Russia is performing horrendous war crimes and must be stopped from encroaching further. We see massacres such as Bucha where Russia had a couple of days and indiscriminately butchered innocent civilians and realized that there is no other way but to keep fighting to stop Russia from taking more territory and lives.

My question is more looking for what changes to the strategy are proposed? Arming Ukraine hasn't stopped Russia from these crimes so far. There's certainly some turning point point where US, or NATO, involvement will be seen as a declaration is war against Russia and it's allies, right?

Another commenter suggest sent a video about this that I'll watch later, I suspect the answer lies there, but thought I'd share with you so you can have some understanding of what someone who sees both side's surface level plans as confusing and problematic .

Arming Ukraine has absolutely stopped Russia from advancing and stopped them from committing more crimes.

Nothing will stop Putin but force.

Russia has no allies, just cronies such as Lukashenko and Russia is de-facto at war with the west. The front line just goes through Ukraine.

Isn't Russia still advancing though? I've only been watching these video updates: https://youtu.be/G8jreLqRSXI?si=wopg1BQA1rc-jhfg

At a pace that Ukraine can handle and allows to evacuate citizens.

Of course, with the US under Trump withdrawing their support we will see what will happen, but currently it is a stalemate.

What encroachment do you mean? There isn't much encroachment other than sabotage. Perhaps some financing of undermining political parties. There was significant encroachment of eastern Europe, but that has slowed down due to attention going towards the Ukraine war.

The main goal in Ukraine should be to make sure that Russia has as little benefit from their invasion as possible. Luckily this is effectively wholly compatible with Ukrainian goals.

Sorry, I should have said encroachment towards the west, or really just "invasion of Ukraine".

> The main goal in Ukraine should be to make sure that Russia has as little benefit from their invasion as possible

But how? Is it mostly to prolong the war until Russia gets tired of spending money and resources on it?

I wish Europe and the US would have just put their foot down and kicked out Russia swiftly and decisively in 2022.

Rather the have adopted the doctrine of "Ukraine can't lose, but Ukraine may not win". Always supplying just enough arms to keep the Ukrainian front from collapsing not to "stir up" Russia.

or in 2014 when they first invaded

Doesn't seem like that would have made anything better though. I thought the general consensus was that direct action would have just escalated things?

I watched a video recently that discussed all the grudges against the West/NATO Russia (Putin) has been holding onto since the mids 90s that makes them feel justified now.

But who cares if Putin escalates. He already is all-in to the tilt. If he had more he would deploy it.

The only thing left would be nuking. He hasn't dared and likely won't.

So what you give in to demands every time he rattles his saber?

History tells us that appeasement is a worse gamble.

Why is it a gamble for the West?

On the contrary: Should Putin risk everything for some sq km of Ukrainian soil?

I think he already answered that question long ago.

By not using nuclear weapons?

Drain Russia in the war. Make them pay for every day they are invading. Make them pay in human lives, make them pay in losy industrial output. Make them pay in economic welfare. Not just on Ukrainian soil.

If at all possible, take back any Ukrainian territory. Reduce whatever gain they got from this invasion. But even if the current line stands, the more Russia can be made to bleed, the less it will think that war can be a net postive for them.