I think you might be over-indexing on the process of getting a job, and under-indexing on the process of /doing/ a job. Yes, getting a job sucks -- for a few weeks or months as you work through the process. But once you have that job, it will take up more than a third of your waking hours for, ideally, years. What can imagine doing for 2000 hours of the next 8760? What would you /enjoy/ doing? That, more than the concerns over the hiring gauntlet, should be your motivation to choose a direction -- and should motivate pushing through the hiring process.
OP does not have a job and, especially in a the crumby market that we’re in for tech work, they just need anything they can get. You’re speaking from a place way higher on Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs than where OP is currently.
It’s hard to imagine yourself in a position where you can casually choose who you want to work for if you are not even getting interviews or offers in the first place. This is therefore not a strategy that leads to very motivational results.
They are trying to tell OP to figure out what motivates them in the first place. Getting into a programming career via non traditional routes, including working non programming jobs to scrape by, is not at all unusual. The main asset you have is your desire to learn and to code. The people I've met who made it non traditionally all code constantly and are hungry for whatever they can get. The people I've met who don't make it don't seem to code all that much; I can only surmise they don't like it very much. And if that's the case, how are you going to motivate yourself to grind not just leet code but all the other crap you have to learn. The job has lots of ups and downs and enjoying coding is what seems to make it sustainable. It seems like a pre-requisite not only for getting that first job, but for keeping it long term.
You have a point, the OP did say that they were having mental health difficulties. So the interview process can definitely make this worse given where this person is at.
But think Addaon also has a point. Yeah, the interview process can often be horrible. It can be demoralizing, especially after what the OP has gone through with their health (I have major health problems too, so can sympathize). For me at least, my solution was to treat a tough job search like a job. And in this way, you don't take all the rejection so personally (it's just apart of the interviewing).
Think this requires more context then what's possible in a post, but the OP may benefit from learning techniques for handling rejection? (I use them myself)
Approaching the challenge of looking for a job is similar to the psychology required by salespeople, who face many more “No” responses than “Yes”es.
On podcasts I’ve heard salespeople talking about the need to invert your thnking if looking at success. To treat every “no” as a win. Count the nos, focus on that. The inner game of sales requires different strategies than other parts of your working life.
It is as if, for the sake of professionalism, they deliberately inhabit an impenetrable optimism, but remain detached enough, at a deeper level, that the rejections are understood as just part of a game.
Easier said than done, of course… I wish you luck, and urge you to take one tiny step at a time, even without motivation, as motivation is something that builds up — “motive” being derived from the same roots as “motion” — as those tiny difficult steps at the start, create motion that brings about momentum and motivation all by itself.
ah, think you're right, the OP didn't mention mental health directly.
although, the OP does mention, after a very tough struggle for many years, and not wanting to compete in the job market because it is "demoralizing and messing with my head."
To counter that, when you have a team with external accountability and teammates relying on you and a salary, that can be far more motivating than working on personal projects by yourself. I wouldn’t discount the field just because of that.
I once held opinions like that, but overcame them long ago.
I came to realise that this kind of stereotype was effectively a narrow minded form of gate-keeping that contributed to the myopic tech-bro dystopia that’s been swallowing all that is good in this world.
Additionally — the original poster has been living through some very difficult times, it would be perfectly normal, and not a sign of job fitness, if motivation hit zero during a period like that.
I just urge them and others to ignore what you’ve said, and to look for a broader worldview.
I think that success isn’t from individual “great engineers” but from excellent teams and collaborations.
We over emphasise the myth of the solo genius, for example, as it fits neatly into “stories”.
There are many cases where the heroic genius “great engineer” seems to be the solution to all of the problems… until they get sick or fired and suddenly the remaining team becomes far more productive than they were before.
It’s a bit like in “moneyball” — how the talent scouts were looking for batsmen that could hit a home run, but the real value was in the batsmen who could consistently make it to first base.
Attributes like “personal motivation and curiosity” — are also filtered through the interviewer’s perception — they become: “personal motivation and curiosity in a form which I can immediately recognise because it fits the patterns I am predisposed to expect” - and this lead to very narrow selections. By looking for this trait (and believing that you can detect it), what other traits are you missing? (Hint: all of them)
In my opinion, you have a very simplistic view of the world and our industry. I formed this from reading quotes like the following:
> If you haven't been naturally excited to work on your own projects during this downtime, this field might not be for you.
reply
Being successful in this field doesn't require programming in your spare time - especially so not while going through a difficult period in life. To think that is the case is a case of pattern matching on a simplistic pattern.
> Do you think you can become a really good engineer without being personally motivated and curious?
No one said that OP wasn't personally motivated nor curious. Again that (in my opinion) is faulty pattern matching. People can be both motivated and curious without taking your one prescribed path. Separately, nothing in this question was about OP trying right now to become a "really good engineer". If your top goal in life is only to be really good at your job, you may want to broaden your horizons w.r.t. your priorities in life. Studying a field, becoming good at it, and making a living doing that is a very wise choice - none of that requires becoming one of the top 10% at that role.
> So no such thing as a good or bad engineer?
No one made a statement even remotely like this. This is a strawman you chose to "reply to" rather than respond to what the prior commenter said.
I don't think your advice is good advice for OP nor a good outlook for anyone starting their career regardless of how ambitious they may be.
> Being successful in this field doesn't require programming in your spare time
I already addressed this point.
> No one made a statement even remotely like this. This is a strawman you chose to "reply to"
No. My argument was that it’s important for a new engineers to have drive and curiosity to get started. The other poster replied that this wasn’t true because “teams”. So I was checking for understanding about why this individual does not need to take their personal development seriously.
> I don’t think your advice is good advice
This is why I am asking questions that seem stupid to you. You don’t think someone should have strong natural interest at the beginning of their career?
> You don’t think someone should have strong natural interest at the beginning of their career?
Again I never said nor implied that. In fact I specifically commented about how incorrect this statement was. I see your line of approach consistently appears to be rather than reply to what is posted, pick a easy statement that nobody stated and argue against that instead. I think it's not a productive use of my time continuing further discussions with you as you are unable to engage with what's actually being said.
> So no such thing as a good or bad engineer? Just teams then?
Buddy I understood your original points — and once held them myself — but if this reply is how you construe what I’ve tried to share with you, you have not reciprocated with any genuine care in trying to understand the conversation I thought we were having.
Counterpoint. One of the best engineers I've ever managed, nearly a 10x engineer, never coded outside of work. The dude was a bass guitarist and cyclist, never opened a code editor or terminal outside of his 9-to-5.
For example, I'm excited to work on my own projects, toying with new languages, teaching my kids, etc, but the overwhelming priority is to find something that pays the bills, and after a long and demoralizing day following that goal, I have little energy to invest much in a shot-in-the-dark side project, even if I had a good idea for one.
