> Second, why not stop there? I have a program for reading my email, it isn't VSCode, I'm fine with that. So telling me Emacs can read email is completely irrelevant to my use of VSCode.
I agree it is irrelevant to your use of VSCode. The comparison, though, was for VSCode with Emacs. Not "VSCode with Emacs for samatman's needs".
> For most people, adding all of these features to the Emacs side of the balance backfires, because now Emacs has to be better than all the tools they use for that stuff, rather than just better at what VSCode does than VSCode is.
It's illogical to say that Emacs has to be better than all those tools to use them. We're not enforcing a dichotomy. You can use both. You can use Gmail's web interface and Emacs mailing abilities. All you need is for one to have some capability that the other doesn't, as opposed to having every capability the other has.
Next: A large part of my point in this thread is that comparing VSCode to Emacs as a whole is in itself silly - one is a fairly specialized tool and the other is fairly generic. If you want to reduce the discussion to SW development, then fine. But people (not you) blanket saying VSCode is better (or worse) than Emacs is like saying Excel is better than Linux. I don't have any desire to convince someone to leave VSCode for Emacs. What for?
Next: Implicit in your comments is the notion that stuff like reading mails is an "extra" in Emacs. It's artificially categorizing. Reading email in Emacs is not an addon - it's part of Emacs's capabilities (although you may get better experiences than the default with addons). If reading/writing emails is considered "extras", then keep in mind so are things like syntax highlighting, debugging, compiling, etc. Emacs is a text editor, and all those features are addons - at the same level as reading mails.
As a VSCode user, some of these addons mean more to you, and you don't care about the others, but understand that lots of people do care about them. So many people out there use Emacs only for org mode and magit.
> This isn't at all what you're doing. It's more like if someone says "awk is fine for text munging, why would I use Perl" and your answer was that Perl has a web server.
Context matters. Understand that my list was in response to "What can Emacs do that VS Code can't?" If someone asked "What can Perl do that awk can't?" then mentioning CPAN and Web servers is totally appropriate. It's pointing out that if you learn Perl, it may benefit you far more than awk ever could. Whether it would or not depends on your goals, of course.
> There's such a thing as a like-for-like comparison.
Agreed, but it helps if the scope is stated clearly. More often it's "Why do you use Emacs when VSCode exists?" And then of course, I'll list all the things I do in Emacs that VSCode doesn't provide. If someone asks "Why do you shop at Walmart when you can shop at Whole Foods?" it's not a problem to respond with "Because I can buy electronics at Walmart." You wouldn't jump on him and say "Hey, you're not doing a like-for-like comparison!"
While I, an inveterate emacs user, largely agree, you're not going to
change any minds when the debate topic is "Vim and emacs both lost to
vscode in the editor wars." To nearly everyone reading this thread, the
bulk of whom are under 35, emacs is just a programmer's editor, and will
be judged on its program editing.
If emails is considered extra, then so are things like syntax
highlighting, debugging, compiling, etc.
Yeah no. The first is email, the latter three are directly relevant to
program editing.
I am repeatedly accused of this. Consider what I have written:
> then by all means - VSCode is the superior tool.
> No one's arguing using only one tool.
> As I write this, I have both VSCode and Emacs windows open.
> We're not enforcing a dichotomy. You can use both.
> I don't have any desire to convince someone to leave VSCode for Emacs. What for?
I certainly won't change any minds, because I'm not trying to.
> To nearly everyone reading this thread, the bulk of whom are under 35, emacs is just a programmer's editor, and will be judged on its program editing.
While I can agree they are the majority, this is a strange take. Do HN readers come to the site to reinforce their problematic views?
And do you think Emacs submissions often hit the front page because those upvoting view Emacs as "just a programmer's editor"? Quite a lot of these top voted submissions (the majority?) are not about programming.
> Yeah no. The first is email, the latter three are directly relevant to program editing.
You are welcome to whatever hierarchy you wish. From an objective architectural standpoint, all are extras on equal footing. I suppose perhaps some of these may have extended support in the C code, but otherwise they are just elisp libraries on top of the core.
I agree it is irrelevant to your use of VSCode. The comparison, though, was for VSCode with Emacs. Not "VSCode with Emacs for samatman's needs".
> For most people, adding all of these features to the Emacs side of the balance backfires, because now Emacs has to be better than all the tools they use for that stuff, rather than just better at what VSCode does than VSCode is.
It's illogical to say that Emacs has to be better than all those tools to use them. We're not enforcing a dichotomy. You can use both. You can use Gmail's web interface and Emacs mailing abilities. All you need is for one to have some capability that the other doesn't, as opposed to having every capability the other has.
Next: A large part of my point in this thread is that comparing VSCode to Emacs as a whole is in itself silly - one is a fairly specialized tool and the other is fairly generic. If you want to reduce the discussion to SW development, then fine. But people (not you) blanket saying VSCode is better (or worse) than Emacs is like saying Excel is better than Linux. I don't have any desire to convince someone to leave VSCode for Emacs. What for?
Next: Implicit in your comments is the notion that stuff like reading mails is an "extra" in Emacs. It's artificially categorizing. Reading email in Emacs is not an addon - it's part of Emacs's capabilities (although you may get better experiences than the default with addons). If reading/writing emails is considered "extras", then keep in mind so are things like syntax highlighting, debugging, compiling, etc. Emacs is a text editor, and all those features are addons - at the same level as reading mails.
As a VSCode user, some of these addons mean more to you, and you don't care about the others, but understand that lots of people do care about them. So many people out there use Emacs only for org mode and magit.
> This isn't at all what you're doing. It's more like if someone says "awk is fine for text munging, why would I use Perl" and your answer was that Perl has a web server.
Context matters. Understand that my list was in response to "What can Emacs do that VS Code can't?" If someone asked "What can Perl do that awk can't?" then mentioning CPAN and Web servers is totally appropriate. It's pointing out that if you learn Perl, it may benefit you far more than awk ever could. Whether it would or not depends on your goals, of course.
> There's such a thing as a like-for-like comparison.
Agreed, but it helps if the scope is stated clearly. More often it's "Why do you use Emacs when VSCode exists?" And then of course, I'll list all the things I do in Emacs that VSCode doesn't provide. If someone asks "Why do you shop at Walmart when you can shop at Whole Foods?" it's not a problem to respond with "Because I can buy electronics at Walmart." You wouldn't jump on him and say "Hey, you're not doing a like-for-like comparison!"