> She found that “the majority of the disparity” in the personal ratings was “more likely caused by race-affected inputs to the admissions process” (such as high-school recommendation letters) or “underlying differences in the attributes” of Asian American and white applicants (meaning that the scores accurately reflected the groups’ qualities). Her bottom line was that Asian Americans’ low personal ratings were “not the result of intentional discrimination” by Harvard.
I suspect this is true, but also shows why subjective evaluation is bad. I have no doubt that, on average, white applicants (socialized into American culture) are better able to persuade some college administrator that they care about something other than getting a job at McKinsey or Goldman than an Asian applicant (who is likely socialized into Asian culture even if born here).
I’m reminded of Barbara Walter’s awful speech at my brother’s graduation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7llYZ2XqLX4. In my experience this is both a common way white Americans think and also bizarre to most Asians. We shouldn’t force Asian kids to go along with this silliness just to get into school.
I’m not going to defend that commencement speech but I want to push back on your thesis.
Why should Harvard be reduced to a job training program for McKinsey or Goldman? Why is it bizarre and silly for people to pursue happiness over money?
From a societal standpoint, I believe we owe much to people who did just that. Scientists and mathematicians, yes, but also writers and actors and poets and musicians. Where would we be, as a society, if everyone focused 100% on the hustle, the grind, the drive to be a founder or a lawyer or a quant?
We’d be a morally and culturally bankrupt desolation. And our schools would be 100% complicit.
While I agree that culture and education are not just means to the end of getting a lucrative job, I think that GP’s point is that it is easier for a white American, _even if they only care about money_, to appear as if they cared about other values.
For many people grown and socialized in some Asian cultures (including Japanese, Korean and Chinese), a good job in a prestigious company is considered a worthwhile objective, not something that needs to be disguised.
For many people grown and socialized in some Asian cultures (including Japanese, Korean and Chinese), a good job in a prestigious company is considered a worthwhile objective, not something that needs to be disguised.
I think that's more a trait of emigrant subcultures than it is a trait of those cultures as a whole. Parents who take big personal, financial, and social risks to move to another country tend to want to protect their investment. When it comes to their children's choice of career, they can get very offended if the child chooses to pursue theatre or fine arts instead of medicine or law.
If, on the other hand, you travel to Japan, Korea, or China (or indeed India, Thailand, Vietnam, or any other country in Asia where people emigrate to come to the US) and actually visit people living in the countryside, in small towns and farming villages, you'll see a radically different picture. People practicing their culture and living a traditional way of life.
The difficulty of immigration and setting down roots in a new place, far from the support of extended family social networks, serves as a natural (and artificial, due to various immigration laws) barrier which tends to select for families where the parents have this sort of drive.
I have met manu Japanese, and a few Chinese, working for Japanese (resp. Chinese) financial companies. All of them were proud of the position they reached, even those that were not too happy about the working conditions (very long hours, slow career progression)
I dated a Chinese international student for 2 years. Her parents put a ton of pressure on her, academically. They would not even allow her to study chemistry (her passion in high school), so she ended up studying math. They are practically forcing her to go to grad school as well. She is not happy with this situation, to say the least.
Now she wants to study cognitive science. They are not happy about it but they can't do anything because they're in China and she's in North America. I've encouraged her to study what she wants.
I think there are countless other Asian students in the same boat. I think part of the reason Harvard is doing what they're doing is to push back on it. Harvard wants independent thinkers who are trying to make a difference in the world, not ladder-climbers (reluctant or otherwise) being pushed by overzealous parents.
> I think there are countless other Asian students in the same boat. I think part of the reason Harvard is doing what they're doing is to push back on it. Harvard wants independent thinkers who are trying to make a difference in the world
Harvard didn’t get to be Harvard by churning out “independent thinkers.” It’s just something WASPs (the ones with real money and breeding) know to say while they try to go work at Morgan Stanley like their dad wants.
For one, kids of poor families can’t really afford to go to university to peruse happiness over money. They don’t want to become poets and musicians because they have a family to support.
If you’re a poor kid and you get into Harvard you get a full ride. Furthermore, even a degree in poetry and literature from Harvard will be your ticket to the middle class. For Harvard students there’s really no excuse not to study whatever you’re most passionate about.
I don’t know anything about you but this sounds out of touch. When you are coming from a poor family you look to maximum financial earnings, not pursue your passions. Financial security is the top priority and you don’t achieve that with a degree in poetry. You study STEM.
> "underlying differences in the attributes” of Asian Americans
But doesn't this mean that AAs were on average less interesting people, or whatever the personal score is trying to judge?
How can that be true?
It seems so much more likely to me that admissions officers understood that if AAs got similar personal scores to other groups then AAs would be overrepresented, and so the admissions officers (implicitly or explicitly) scored more them more harshly.
How can it be true that AAs are less interesting people on average? Isn't the usual answer of why they are so successful on standardized tests that it comes down to their culture? Why shouldn't their charisma also be cultural?
> When I went to college I went to a very small college called Sarah Lawrence, back in the middle ages. I had a professor who became very well known. His name was Joseph Campbell and he exhorted us all to follow our bliss. Do what you love, follow your bliss and you will truly be successful. It was great advice, except when I graduated from college I hadn't a clue what I really loved. I had no bliss to follow. When I look at all of you today I think many of you do know what your bliss is. Graduate school, or medicine or law or biology, ecology, sociology. How about none of the above? How many of you in this graduating class truly know what your bliss is? Raise your hands. Isn't that interesting. Not that great a number. How many of you do not know what your bliss is? Raise your hands. Don't be afraid. Most of us don't. I didn't find my bliss until I was in my 30s and then by luck. That's another story.
Basically just “find something you are passionate about so you enjoy your career”. Meh, seems harmless in a commencement speech and not race/culture specific advice.
This is the hierarchy of needs. Western society has been wealthy for a few extra generations over Asian. Paying the bills just isn’t enough for many of us to feel our life was well spent at this point. Possibly it’s decadent and a sign of decay.
Yes. As an immigrant from a third world country it’s actually quite scary to me that the current generation of Americans probably couldn’t have built the society they inherited from their ancestors.
I suspect this is true, but also shows why subjective evaluation is bad. I have no doubt that, on average, white applicants (socialized into American culture) are better able to persuade some college administrator that they care about something other than getting a job at McKinsey or Goldman than an Asian applicant (who is likely socialized into Asian culture even if born here).
I’m reminded of Barbara Walter’s awful speech at my brother’s graduation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7llYZ2XqLX4. In my experience this is both a common way white Americans think and also bizarre to most Asians. We shouldn’t force Asian kids to go along with this silliness just to get into school.