"Is it really pissing time away if you're enjoying your time spent playing video games?"
It depends on if you ever think you will regret it or not. I thought the same thing 10 years ago when I was spending years playing games and having fun. Now it feels like I wasted a colossal amount of time no matter how much fun it was at the time. I'd never made that choice knowing what I know now.
Interesting. I was very into PC gaming in my teens and look back on that time quite fondly. Certainly not with any regret or a feeling that I wasted my time.
Same here. If you're saying "that time I spend gaming was wasted time", you'd better have a really good story about what you would have done instead, excluding any kind of hindsight magic.
There are a ton of low-effort forms of entertainment available today. It's easy for them to dominate choice. If you take those away, other things will emerge and grab your interest. If you are even a remotely interested person you'll find stuff. A few months ago I was at the beach without as much technology access and enjoyed it so much that I put myself on a media diet after. I suddenly felt more excitement about programming projects I had started but not finished, reading books, cello practice, little projects around my house and garden. One thing all these things had in common is that they left be feeling better when I was done with them. That just doesn't happen for me with most video games and movies. But it's just so much easier to fall into the couch and watch Netflix or grab the controller.
I really think this thread has to specify the types of video games it speaks about. Because games range from CoD-like X-to-Win shooters with endless changing backgrounds to something more elaborate and harder than real life activities, while being relatively short.
You are right that this makes a difference. I think the difference might be relatively small though. At best the experience can be comparable to having read a great fiction book (Disco Elysium, Life is Strange) or a good social experience like playing with your friends online while using voice chat. Online games with total strangers can be challenging and fun, but also a blur. I've spent way too much time playing Rocket League for example and my experience in hindsight would have been the same off I had only played for like 5-10 hours. And then there are pretend-work games like Factorio, Kerbal Space Program or even more obvious Zachtronic games like Shenzhen IO. The latter might be great exercise for non-programmers, but you don't actually accomplish anything and still exhausted the same parts of your brain.
I like this post. It rings a bell with me when you wrote: <<But it's just so much easier to fall into the couch and watch Netflix or grab the controller.>>
I cannot put a finger on it, but what is the difference between (a) reading a newspaper, magazine, book (fiction or non-fiction) and (b) playing video games or streaming films / TV shows? I cannot put a finger on it, but (a) reading activates some part of my brain that (b) streaming does not. Why? I'm not sure. I never read any research about it. One thing I can say: Watching documentaries is different than other stuff. Again: Not sure why. It might only be me and my brain that feels this way.
Also, this part: <<I suddenly felt more excitement about programming projects I had started but not finished, reading books, cello practice, little projects around my house and garden.>> Again, I cannot put a finger on it, but what really is the difference between these activities and playing video games or streaming films / TV shows? On the surface, not much, but the emotional satisfaction is so different when finishing a cello piece or novel versus a streamed season of a TV show.
Imo most games are simply dopamine-sinks or reflex-based, which is fine, but you are not going to get the same brain activity as doing something which requires deep focus and that can actually be constructive. Games tend to be passive, in that once you understand how to win, you don't need to put in as much active thinking. You just need to know how to respond.
I think some of it might not be about reading activating part of my brain as much as it is about most video games and modern movies and tv shows creating some kind of dopamine feedback loop and dependence that makes other tasks less interesting and even reduces my ability to perform them as well.
Playing a game means mastering skills in a purely fictional world with purely fictional sets of rules and challenges. It doesn't translate into your life, expect in the most abstract way [1]. Whereas reading a newspaper, magazine or a book deepens your understanding of the world you live in.
[1] The flipside is that it can teach you bad habits as well. If the result of the game does not matter in any way, you have no incentive to try hard at it, and can just coast, turn the game off when you're frustrated etc. This is not how real-life is (coasting and difficulty avoidance don't work as well), so games can teach damaging habits. It's better in team multiplayer games, because in-game peer pressure can make you get out of your comfort zone.
If you really think that games cannot teach you the same things as purely written words then perhaps you have a very limited view of what kind of games are out there.
Games convey very simplistic ideas compared to the full extent of human thought, expressed in spoken or written form. It's usually way more washed down than cinema, which is already incredibly washed down.
Not to mention the benefit of say reading about your country's history, as opposed to the history of some ficitonal world in a video game - with history books, you're learning about the things which actually happened and have had a direct, large impact on your life and the world around you.
Novels, while being ficitonal, allow you to explore inner worlds of other people and complex interactions between them (and there's nothing more complex in the universe and at the same important to us than humans and interactions between them), something that games are severely lacking (cue in people telling me about Nier Automata and one or two other story-based games which are approaching the level of a bad novel).
Most video games are spatially-oriented and are basically more sophisticated version of children playing tag, football or similar simple games focused around interactions in 3d space. And the ones that are not that, i.e. that try to be about humans and not simple spatial and temporal relationships, basically suck for the most part. It's clear that the medium is not meant for them.
The thing is, Nier Automata doesn't try to be a novel. I mean, it's not even that subtle, game all but tells you that it tries to experiment with storytelling in the medium in the first 30 minutes.
Also, you sound extremely prejudiced and close minded:
> Novels, while being ficitonal, allow you to explore inner worlds of other people and complex interactions between them (and there's nothing more complex in the universe and at the same important to us than humans and interactions between them)
How do you even argue with that? Can you somehow support this claim?
Though from reasoning like this i can deduce that you must hate House of Leaves, and kinda understand why you dislike Nier Automata.
Nier Automata is an interesting example! It touched on a lot of interesting topics and did so in a very creative way. At the same time I also feel that the game wasn't mindful of my time at all. The stretches between the interesting story elements were frequently separated by long, often-repeating stretches of fairly simple hack'n slack gameplay. I'd hold up something like Outer Wilds or Disco Elysium though. But Disco Elysium is pretty close to an amazing book and doesn't do as creative work with the game medium as Nier does.
I don't think there's anything bad with gaming in your free time - at any age. In the end, why shouldn't one just enjoy whatever life's possibilities are? It's obviously important to keep all other areas of life under control, but what's bad about enjoying doing something - even if it's not productive - especially when you're young. This is quite philosphical, but I've found the idea of optimistic nihilism very helpful for having an overall more relaxed view on life https://you.com/search?q=optimistic+nihilism
Arguably, any consumption activities are better done when old, and investment activities when young. Effort when young pays off with tons of compounding over your lifespan. Effort when old is not as important, and so pure consumption non-productive activities are probably better enjoyed when old, are they not? Especially if it is something like videogames that doesn't exactly require some great physical abilities.
> you'd better have a really good story about what you would have done instead, excluding any kind of hindsight magic.
Nah, that is not how it works. Effectively, you want people to tell you about some grand plan they would executed it, if they did not played.
The way it works when you stop gaming/reading too much facebook etc is that you start being more active in other areas. You get more fit, you suddenly read more about history without planning to, you do crafts here and there, learn to draw or play music instrument on and off. And overall you feel calmer, more creative, sleep better. And after after months/years it accumulate and you look back happy. It does not feel wasted, cause you have that picture on the wall, your dad has your the thing you created, you are really proud about that song you can play.
Because there isn't that much else to do as a teen. The opportunity cost of spending time on gaming is low. You could get a job and start saving or investing, or study harder and advance your education more quickly, but it's not the expectation that teens will do this in a significant way.
An adult who is free to do anything and chooses to spend a lot of time gaming has a higher opportunity cost and a higher likelyhood of regret later.
Learning responsibility? Learning how an organization functions? Perhaps learning a skill at the job (customer service, mental math, cooking, etc)? A waste?
> Learning responsibility? Learning how an organization functions? Perhaps learning a skill at the job (customer service, mental math, cooking, etc)? A waste?
I see people argue for the real-world skills gaming affords— but when the biggest risk is embarrassment among people you’ll never meet, and the primary real world reward is inadvertently exercising a few organizational muscles in a vastly different context from the real world, I just don’t see it. Not saying there’s no benefit, but it’s not even in the same ballpark as actual work experience.
Not all jobs are boring. I worked as a life guard and taught swim lessons as a teen. I made great friends, we had pool parties, and I enjoyed teaching and it felt good to buy/save for things myself rather than always ask my parents for money
if that's what you like, yeah. I prefer to have sat with my friends playing bomberman or fighting games, laughing at each other when they died, eating popcorn and chilling.
Working as a life guard taught you about skill building (life guards are usually well-trained / licensed) and responsibility (show up to work on-time and consistently; care for swimmers). Even if you found life guarding boring, you would still gain both of those experiences. If you stayed home and played video games instead, the result would be different. (I hesitate to use the term "less" here... else I would get a HN pile-on!)
What about people who read a lot in their childhood / teen years. Their minds seem to be wired differently than those who play video games. (Probably mistaken cause and effect on my part...)
There is a ton of stuff to do as a teen. I spent a lot of my time getting into graphics. Other things to do could be sports of various kinds, music, making stuff, etc.
I look back on that stuff fondly, and I feel like doing that stuff helped me a ton today.
I think the key here is the regret. Is playing games alone, or with friends really that much different from some other activity, such as traveling, alone, or with friends? Sure you learn while traveling, but also get good at gaming the more you do it. You can even substitute traveling with some other hobby (playing the guitar, building legos, etc). Some may argue that the guitar is a "useful" skill but I'd argue that gaming can be a useful skill in the same sense.
Regret isn't an problem with your past, it is a problem with your current self's opinion of the past. You are judging your past self based on your current self but that is unfair and you might want to think how that impacts your life going forward. Making decisions based on what you think your future self will approve of doesn't seem like it'd have the best results.
I think I agree with this; the usual clichés about regret place a sort of bias towards how one feels at the end of one's life, but just because it's the last opinion doesn't necessarily mean it should win.
I vehemently disagree. Making decisions based on your future self would like is most generally the best thing you can do. Maybe you should really go out for a run even though you don't want to. Your future self will thank you. Maybe you should start working on that thing that is due soon. Your future self will thank you. And there are countless more examples. The practically write themselves.
The examples you've given here are both extremely short term and are presumably things that help you achieve goals now-you wants.
I know what I want for myself in five years. I don't and to large degree can't know what me-in-five-years will wish I had wanted.
My approach is to go for the things I want for myself now, while always being cognizant of providing options and opportunities for the future. It's not perfect, and it never will be because I don't have perfect foresight. But it works well enough.
None of those are future in a planning sense. They are immediate goals with immediate impacts. Getting exercise regularly pays off almost immediately and continues to pay of day to day. Finishing a project today has the immediate reward of finishing it and not having to worry about it anymore. The example was your 10 year from now self. And while you might come up with some 10-year span anecdotes, I don't see it being a good heuristic for living your life in general.
They are definitely future planning things. IF you don't go for a run now you won't notice tomorrow, you won't notice in a week. You won't even notice in a month. But compare a person who is 50 who was active for his entire life and one who isn't and the differences can be stark.
I've been thinking about this and IMO really it is more about the focus on regret as a motivator for action. Regret is a negative emotion, so this is basically a strategy of pain avoidance. I think it is this aspect that is the problem, not the future forecasting. That you are optimizing for pain avoidance and not your happiness.
Can’t we say that an inactive person just lived through their life quicker because they didn’t spend time on these activities? Absolute years of life isn’t a meaningful metric here, imo.
I love this take on regret, and it really resonates with how I reason about it.
I wrote a short blog post on the idea of judging your past self based on your current values: https://www.samvitjain.com/blog/regret/. Curious what you think!
I think I am correct in my judgement that playing World of Warcraft for 300+ days of playtime was not a good use of my time. It is a failure of my past self for thinking that was a good idea. People make mistakes all the time. I don't believe anyone who says they have no regrets at all. You live with them though.
In my thirties i regret not working more in my twenties, and in my forties i regret not working more in my thirties.
However upon introspection, i realize that this regret is always based on not wanting to work more now.
edit; to quote "The Idler" from the RT-11 operation system kernel source code (and my new favorite quote).."To be idle is the ultimate purpose of the busy"
There is also that aspect where doing the same thing everyday makes time seem short. Versus doing something new, which yeah do you have the money to take a vacation.
Everytime I finish a project I ask myself was it worth it. It's like buying a new device, you want it until you have it.
> I thought the same thing 10 years ago when I was spending years playing games and having fun. Now it feels like I wasted a colossal amount of time no matter how much fun it was at the time.
I don’t think you should blame yourself for ‘wasting’ that time. I’m sure past you would have considered it a waste to do what you do now.
There’s many things I may wanted to do differently, but I’d never actually do so since they brought me where I am now.
Before I started with my daily sports routine, at least one hour of biking outside every day (unless it's impossible due to health or schedule, but laziness, tiredness or season/temperature is not an excuse), I noticed that I have wasted the possibly best years of my life in front of a screen. Now I get to pick up what's left over and make the best out of it.
I really wish I had started with it when I was in my 20s, ideally as an early teenager or even kid, when breaking some bones is not something which keeps you concerned for many weeks.
I wish I could drive into the alps and ride the trails, but I'm currently "recovering" from a crash which ripped a tendon. In quotes because it can't really be fixed and I have to see if the system is still usable enough. But it is enough for having a lot of fun outside.
Today at 17:00 I was completely tired laying in my bed after watching hours of a TV series, half asleep and feeling badly rested, was struggling to motivate me to ride. But at 18:00 I pulled myself up and went, and I had a blast during those 1:30 hours, was even making screams of joy (I ride alone, so it's no show, but a feedback expression to myself). I was congratulating me for making the decision to go and ride, had super beautiful views of the nature at wonderful 27°C (80°F). Dry but planted fields, juicy green forests, sounds of birds and insects, breathable, clean air, warm wind being felt by the hairs on the legs and arms, what an experience.
I have a lavalier mic attached to my backpack's breast strap and an app where I can press record, to record notes of 1 minute length. I will quote you one of the recordings from today:
rec60s--1656265743723--19-49-03.q128.mp3: "Well, thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you that you overcame yourself to then get up, go out and ride the bike, because it was really, really nice! Thank you very much! It was good, it was worth it, you have to do this, always, always. Always force you to do this. Regardless of how weary, how tired, how uninspired, you rode extra. Extra, because it was so nice. Other ways, new ways, new trails"
With "extra" I meant that I had initially decided to ride my minimum of 23 km in a relatively dull track which I know I will be able to complete under any circumstances (except when I have migraine), but then decided to leave the asphalt, ride up a hill through a forest into some fields, where I then took this photo.
Maybe I'm a psycho for talking to me like that, but I know that I switch contexts very hard so that I'm a different person when I do different things and tend to forget the experiences. So this was a "thank you" and reminder from the biking me to the baseline me. Usually I only record new ideas or things I get reminded of which I forgot.
I wasn't really sure if I was going to ride today, I didn't yesterday, because I rode so hard and long distances last week that by butt was really hurting, and no amount deer tallow cream (Xenofit Second Skin) seemed to be helping. But it turned out that I had zero issues with it today.
Most of the riding time is a relatively hard exercise with heavy breathing and lots of sweating. No video game will ever be a replacement for such a thing.
But I know that I very likely already have my best years behind me (and lost them to a screen).
It seems silly to me to regret the past, as it cannot be changed. It can be used to inform decisions you make today or in the future, but regretting it is pointless.
I already tried to get it transcribed in Google Cloud so that I could get a summary email with a map, stats and the recorded notes in text form, but it didn't work. That was around two years ago, so maybe nowadays it could work. Also the notes are spoken in German which was bad back then and have some degree of noise in it (gravel, wind).
Edit: I just tested it with the recorder app on my Pixel 3 (played back via headphones pressed against the phone's mic) and it was able to transcribe it with almost no errors, so there is hope.
It depends on if you ever think you will regret it or not. I thought the same thing 10 years ago when I was spending years playing games and having fun. Now it feels like I wasted a colossal amount of time no matter how much fun it was at the time. I'd never made that choice knowing what I know now.