> No, technical progress is key part of progress.

If nothing is rooted in people's / society's / community's / government's wants and needs, then what incentives are left for progress?

> Most innovators are not driven by the constant complaints of other people.

I think you may be conflating inventors with innovators. Inventors, like innovators, are a product of their time. The leaps and bounds come from invention. And invention follows necessity, as an old saying goes.

I wasn't talking about needs, I was talking about complaints.

Innovators/Inventors are driven by their needs, not by other people's complaints. Unless they need to stop their spouses complaining or something like that.

>Innovators/Inventors are driven by their needs, not by other people's complaints.

A need is the solution to a complaint, no?

Complaints may be communicating needs, so if you remove complaint then you stop the flow of communication about needs.

You can complain, all I said is that innovators are not driven by complaints.

Not sure if people complained about horses a lot before the automobile came along.

They sure did complain about slow transit. Of course, the key isn't listening to customer's solutions but to their problems, and then inventing on their behalf. This is what Amazon calls "customer obsession".

Jeff Bezos on learned helplessness, innovation, making decisions with data and despite data (2005): https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/WhnDvvNS8zQ

A lot of (most?) innovation is driven by problems that need solving. It's a lot easier to start a company if there is already a large audience that really wants a problem solved and are willing to pay for the solution.

Having an amazing novel idea and then convincing people not having it in their life is a problem is way harder

Yes of course - problems, needs, not complaints.

what is the difference? isn't a complaint essentially just stating that you have a problem

"Complain" sometimes takes on the nuance of unproductive whining (repeatedly bringing up problems that others in the situation cannot fix), entitled attitude (why aren't things such and such: everyone around me should accommodate to me), excessive focus on minor things (I hate this whole situation that I can't change, and I can make that constantly known by harping on minor aspects) and such.

complaining is talking about needs. i dont understand your distinction

If you keep complaining about the lack of water though a pipeline will eventually be built.

No, if you collect money to pay for it it will be built. Or if the inventors themselves want the water and build it for themselves.

If you don't recognize the problem i doubt you ll collect any money for it

I didn't say anything about not recognizing problems.

You did because you stated there is no utility in communicating needs via complaint. I think you are digging a hole and instead of realizing how deep you have dug, you just keep going hoping to find yourself on the winning side of this silly semantic debate.

I think the "complaint fraction" is digging the hole, not me.

Maybe you could point out some inventors/innovators who were driven by complaints?

You literally did.

No I literally didn't. This is ridiculous.

You have never in your life been motivated to help someone else with needs you didnt have?

Complaints and needs are different things.

no they arent

So protesting is useless, and necessity is not the mother of invention?

Protesting is mostly useless.