I couldn't believe it when I found out that these are a real, actual thing. I don't see how anyone in the US can cast stones at any other nation for corrupt police accepting bribes when you can largely get carte blanche just for being 'in the club' there.
I think the counter argument would be that the issue with police bribery is not so much that some people are able to get out of minor citations (it's not like these cards will get you out of murder charge or anything) but rather the issue of corrupt police shaking people down for bribes.
I'm not sure that is in the "better" column. At least anyone with access to some cash can pass a bribe. Here we are making it a more exclusive to those who hang in the right circles. That to me is more corrupt.
Even the signal it is sending stinks. The law should apply even to other cops (on and off duty but that is another story) equally as any other citizen. If just being friends with a cop gets you some special entitlement then what does being a cop mean, near total immunity?
> If just being friends with a cop gets you some special entitlement then what does being a cop mean, near total immunity?
That's been more or less the case, yes. That and the systemic racism exhibited while they get this near-total immunity is a large driver behind the recent protests.
Anyone can bribe... if they have the money to do so. Which certainly puts many groups at a disadvantage.
Regardless, the police officer doesn't benefit directly from being shown a "courtesy card", so it's not like a cop is going to pull someone over just for the hope of getting shown one of these cards. But in countries where police bribery is prevalent, police will often stop people who are doing nothing wrong, simply because they want a bribe.
So I agree that these two practices aren't the same, but not for the reason you state. Both practices are awful and disadvantage people who are unable to participate (don't have police friends, can't afford a bribe), but the "courtesy card" garbage at least doesn't create a police-citizen extortion situation.
I think the difference is in the incentive to stop someone in the moment.
In places where cash bribes are common, police will pull people over -- even if they've done nothing wrong -- in order to solicit a bribe.
That sort of thing isn't possible with the "courtesy cards", so police stops are more likely to be for legitimate reasons (or at least no more or less legitimate than in an ideal system), but people who shouldn't get away with things often will.
Anyone can buy a FOP decal though, and as far as I'm concerned, an FOP Decal accomplishes the same thing in practice.
I mean, its not the same as bribery. But its the kind of thing that creates the mindset of people like Rittenhouse (Kenosha Shooter).
Showing off a "pro-police" political affiliation (be it a FOP sticker or a PBA card) makes the cops go easy on you for minor infractions.
The problem happens when people who are "pro-police" start showing up at protests, staying past a 8pm curfew, and then shoots three people in self-defense (allegedly).
On the one hand: the Sheriff of Kenosha refused to deputize these people and had the foresight to see what issues the behavior would cause. On the other hand: there's a low-level expectation "friends with benefits" with Police culture. If you're a friend of the police, the police reciprocate that friendship back to you. And one can argue that things are unfair in that regards. (Ex: failure to enforce the curfew on Rittenhouse)
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With that being said: I've been to countries with explicit bribery. The American way is better. Period. There's no comparison between this behavior and bribery.
But there seems to be an unfairness even in the American way, which is discussed in the core article and exemplified in Kenosha (and IMO: the Kenosha shooter is just the highest-profile example of this debate).
>On the one hand: the Sheriff of Kenosha refused to deputize these people
I’m not sure I understand why this is even mentioned - it seems like you’re giving him credit for it, but why on God’s green Earth would he have done that? That would’ve been crazy, right?
>With that being said: I've been to countries with explicit bribery. The American way is better. Period.
I’ve been to (and lived in) countries where there’s pretty much neither - surely that’s where the bar should be?
> I’ve been to (and lived in) countries where there’s pretty much neither - surely that’s where the bar should be?
Well, if the question is "Is this better than bribery", I can say without a doubt that its better than bribery. When EVERY traffic ticket is really a request from the local officer to shake you down for money (you may have not been speeding. Doesn't matter, the local cop wants his breakfast or whatever and knows that bribes are widespread. They stop you for a ticket, which is really a request for a bribe). There's simply no comparison.
> surely that’s where the bar should be?
Well yeah. But the people I was responding to was comparing the behavior to bribery. And bribery is what I have experience with.
You really, really don't want to live with a bribery culture. In this case, you're declaring friendship with the cops (through the use of an FOP sticker or PBA card, or whatever the local police union is). And that's where you get exceptional behavior.
Yeah, the USA has civil asset forfeiture, but given the red tape behind that, its still a step up from bribery.
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> I’m not sure I understand why this is even mentioned - it seems like you’re giving him credit for it, but why on God’s green Earth would he have done that? That would’ve been crazy, right?
Its not crazy in America. These things come down to the local sheriff's decision. I think people underestimate the power of the Sheriff in many cases.
I bring it up because Sheriff of Kenosha seems like a reasonable person, compared to other Sheriffs across the country. On the one hand, the Sheriff of Kenosha is responsible for the actions of his own officers (and in this case: responsible for the failure of his officers to arrest Rittenhouse for violating curfew).
On the other hand, the Sheriff of Kenosha cannot fight the "greater police culture" that's across America. The expectation for pro-police people to be treated with leniency is endemic in virtually every place I've been to in America (again: FOP decals or PBA cards): along with "Police Bill of Rights" (special protections to officers that normal people don't get), and so forth.
Not sure where you're reading that I said it wasn't; I completely agree with you. But if my choices are living in a society where some people evade punishment by being buddies with the cops, or a society where cops routinely stop people for no reason other than a shakedown for a bribe, I'd pick the first option every time.
The original comment bizarrely asserted that bribery is more democratic than the cop-buddy system; that's what I was responding to.
I'd of course prefer a third choice where neither of these things happen.
I think the argument concerns how commonplace bribery is.
This exists, but is relatively small in scope. And no, I don't agree with the "universal bribery is democratic" argument, because the end goal is to arrive at 0 bribery.
There’s a huge difference between signaling a prior relationship with law enforcement by presenting a PBA card and outright bribing the responding officer.
What's the difference besides how the special permission to break the law is obtained? It's still corruption. The article shows you can buy these cards on eBay for <$100.
> What's the difference besides how the special permission to break the law is obtained?
Outright bribes can be demanded on the spot for infractions that’s don’t exist. They incentivize stopping more people to demand them. They directly benefit the responding officer and can become a core part of their income. Once that happens you’re really screwed as the only people willing to become cops are dirty cops.
> It's still corruption.
I didn’t say it’s a good practice. But just because it’s bad does not mean it’s worse than living with a “police tax” every time you’re stopped.
> The article shows you can buy these cards on eBay for <$100.
That’s be pointless and is for suckers. The cop is supposed to contact the source to verify the relationship.
> Mike works in an industry that regularly puts him into contact with police officers, which gives him the opportunity to form personal, trusting relationships with them. As such, he said, he frequently receives PBA cards as a thank-you for extending cops small business favors and deals; currently, he estimates that he has somewhere between 10 and 12 unexpired courtesy cards in his possession.
> And if it was cash exchanged at the time of an officer responding to a crime it’d be even worse.
Would it be? Buying bribe credits ahead of time doesn't seem inherently any better than on-the-spot bribes to me. Arguably worse; if it really is the case that small business owners get these with favours, then unless they're reimbursing the company personally for the bribe purchase, they are purchasing personal items through their business. So add tax evasion to the list of sins.
The original comment to which I responded was arguing that the concept of PBA cards was as bad as direct bribes as seen in other countries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24353240
You wouldn't have to deal with a "police tax" if you didn't do things that made you get stopped. Admittedly that's easier said than done in america where the police are told how to use a gun and let lose on the public, but as a rule of thumb, not breaking the law is an advisable course of action.
