> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely.
Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome.
Assuming you're on HN because you're teaching yourself programming, the sting will be somewhat lessened (that's the route I took), since you'll at least be able to get a job.
But it'll still sting to make those massive loan payments knowing that nothing you learned is helping you with your professional life, and that things like philosophy, mathematics, and languages (and computer science!) can be learned just as easily with discipline, YouTube, and a few good textbooks.
It's very easy to delay the pain of loan payments when you're in school, but they'll be there waiting for you, inevitably, through sickness and health, marriage and divorce.
If you have endless curiosity, college is even less worth it. Instead, being loan-free gives you the freedom to work in areas that truly intrigue you, and to work in very low-paying internships while you're learning.
But I know I won't convince you. Likely no one could have convinced me at the time (although only one person tried, once).
Edit: if this were the 1970s or earlier, when you could pay for college classes from waiting tables or a $10,000 loan (inflation adjusted!), I'd absolutely say go for it. But taking out even $50,000 in debt at age 18 for anything less than a guaranteed job with a good income (physician assistant, nursing, accounting) is mortgaging your future. Taking out $200,000, which is the going rate for most [edit: should read "many, private", and is probably closer to $100,000] liberal arts 4-year-degrees, is insanity, but between culture BS about degrees and "academic counselors", I know it may not seem that way to you right now.
I majored in one of the STEM fields that doesn't pay any money (chemistry), and now I do the computer stuff for a living and to make money. Given how I did the whole "do STEM and you'll never be wrong route" and it was wrong... Well, I wish I had spent those 4 years at college reading philosophy works and studying the classics. I'd probably still be in the same place I am now, but at least I wouldn't have spent 1000+ hours in a lab to get here.
My point wasn't about STEM vs liberal arts. I actually agree with you. Unless you're going to an elite school where you'll network with highly influential people, taking out massive loans for anything less than a totally professionally-focused degree (physician assistant, accounting, nursing) or a software-industry favored degree (computer science, math or physics) is a huge mistake.
Also, my only remaining loans are from me going back and doing a "professional" degree that proved to be fairly useless. I had thought I did my research but failed to crunch the numbers carefully enough or account for future family decisions (most employment opportunities in the field required extended foreign residence/travel). So I sympathize with taking out loans for a "responsible" degree and still coming out financially screwed.
"Average student loan balance" is not what I said. Average student loan balance includes:
1) Tons of scholarships, and
2) Non-liberal arts colleges (technical schools, professional schools, the scam schools advertised on TV, etc).
I also was thinking (although failed to specify) private liberal arts colleges. I stand by that figure. If you're taking out loans for a private liberal arts degree, it'll be over $100,000 and many will exceed $200,000.
Edit: Just read that it's supposedly $32,000 in loans for private 4-year degrees. I'm very skeptical of that Federal Reserve figure, since average tuition only for private 4-year degrees is somewhere around $35,000 per year. The Fed also has incentives to find ways to underplay this figure, just like they undercount unemployment. So I'm highly skeptical.
College Board estimates $14,610 per year is what students actually pay for tuition only. If you don't have wealthy or upper-middle-class parents, then you'll need to tack on living expenses and books. If you're not wealthy or upper-middle class, you'll take most of that out in loans, which will be well over $100,000 by graduation.
I know numerous students who have recently graduated with over $100,000 in loans from private 4-year colleges (no, not me, I graduated over 10 years ago, and all of my remaining loans are from a professional master's degree). I know several underemployed lawyers who have well over $200,000 in school loans that they'll likely never pay off.
31% of students graduate with zero debt, that does not mean their tuition was free. Those balances also exclude loans taken out by parents to pay for collage.
Thank you for the input. It's interesting, and hey, it might be the case down the road. But my main philosophy behind my seemingly naive post is this: I don't mind what happens. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters.
Edit: I saw your edit, and again, thank you for your input. I would just like to note that I'll be graduating with ~12k in debt - I went to a community college first while living with my parents and transferred to a UC, and California's higher education system supports low-income, first generation households fairly well - to which I owe great gratitude to.
"I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters."
That's a false dichotomy that will be difficult to fully adhere to when you spend your next decades as an adult. Yes, perspective matters; a LOT. But "what is" and "what was" can matter a lot too. Imagining that you can just think your way out of hard spots can lead to complacency about the choices that you make. Keeping a positive perspective can involve an enormous amount of mental effort that may have been mitigated by better choices.
I'm about to finish paying off about $65,000 dollars that I took out for my CS degree. I graduated 4 years ago and have a good paying job. So, I'm lucky to have to be paying it off early. However, even with my 6 figure income, paying off this large sum off money has been a huge burden and has majorly affected other choices in my life like investments, career (I.e. I had to take the high paying jobs), buying a house, etc etc. If I could go back and do it again I would avoid any student loans like the plague they are.
Edit: just saw your edit reply to above edit :) that is much more reasonable than the situation that I put myself into. Still, I would recommend doing everything you can to avoid the debt. Paying back 1000's of dollars is a large burden.
~12,000 isn't too bad. You also did the smart thing by going to community college first.
So it's sounds like you're OK, or at least not financially ruined. Payments on $12,000 will be manageable.
I'm mostly talking about the folks taking out $50-200,000 in loans for an undergrad degree with some random major (with the upper end of that scale obviously being much worse than the lower end).
Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome.
Assuming you're on HN because you're teaching yourself programming, the sting will be somewhat lessened (that's the route I took), since you'll at least be able to get a job.
But it'll still sting to make those massive loan payments knowing that nothing you learned is helping you with your professional life, and that things like philosophy, mathematics, and languages (and computer science!) can be learned just as easily with discipline, YouTube, and a few good textbooks.
It's very easy to delay the pain of loan payments when you're in school, but they'll be there waiting for you, inevitably, through sickness and health, marriage and divorce.
If you have endless curiosity, college is even less worth it. Instead, being loan-free gives you the freedom to work in areas that truly intrigue you, and to work in very low-paying internships while you're learning.
But I know I won't convince you. Likely no one could have convinced me at the time (although only one person tried, once).
Edit: if this were the 1970s or earlier, when you could pay for college classes from waiting tables or a $10,000 loan (inflation adjusted!), I'd absolutely say go for it. But taking out even $50,000 in debt at age 18 for anything less than a guaranteed job with a good income (physician assistant, nursing, accounting) is mortgaging your future. Taking out $200,000, which is the going rate for most [edit: should read "many, private", and is probably closer to $100,000] liberal arts 4-year-degrees, is insanity, but between culture BS about degrees and "academic counselors", I know it may not seem that way to you right now.