Same story with phones. You are free to buy from other suppliers. But you can’t walk into a Walmart and buy milk from whole foods on their shelf’s, even if you feel that would be great for you personally because Walmart is closer but you prefer Whole Foods.
And I am free to use Google Music, Apple Music, YouTube Music, Deezer and even Tidal. Nobody is forcing me to use Spotify.
But, if I have an iPhone, the only application store I can use is controlled by Apple.
In other words: if I am an artist and I want to offer my music via streaming I have plenty of options. If one of them does have a deal that I find unfair, I can choose others.
If I am a developer and I want to offer my app to iPhone users, I have only one option. And if I am banned from this store for any policy infringement (which sometimes is ridiculous and totally arbitrary) I have no other option to offer my app to iPhone users.
I think it's somewhat frequent to have app submissions denied, but I haven't heard of Apple banning future submissions in the same way that I hear of Google permabanning developers.
I agree with Android it's slightly different because side loading is at least possible, but I doubt many people are going to find your widget if it's not on the play store.
True, and if I’m a dairy farm that wants to sell my products to Walmart’s customers there’s only one distributor of shelf space to go to. You can’t cut through an arbitrary point in the business and just demand they change their model. The iPhone might not even be a viable platform today if they had been forced to carry malware from the start because they had “a monopoly on their own product”
Users can’t reasonably be expected to switch smartphone hardware just because of an app. The smartphone hardware market has its own constraints (people generally own only one at a time, they upgrade it every couple of years at a cost of several hundred dollars, etc). Apple may have legitimately earned its position in that hardware market by making products people want, but it’s not legitimate for them to use that dominance to control wholesalers’ access to consumers in a separate marketplace: music streaming. In that marketplace, the relative success of Apple Music vs Spotify should be based on consumer preferences for those services, not on which company also happens to dominate a separate marketplace. See also: Microsoft using its OS market dominance to control the web browser market.
No, that is not the same story. Physical stores can be swapped out on a whim. Phones are something you change at most every couple of years (and hopefully last even longer, if you give a damn about the environment).
Actually, the "Walmart is a choice" claim also only holds up if there actually are multiple stores nearby, because who is going to drive fifty miles to the next store? Food deserts are a thing.
This is a false idea of "choice" and it is just yet another way producers and sellers try to shift responsibility to the end consumer who is largely powerless in most cases.
OK, but there are no iPhone deserts where only iPhones work and Androids get no signal. I don't see any false choice here. There are plenty of other phones on plenty of networks, with plenty of Apps. If there are more or better Apps on the iPhone, arguably that's at least in part because of their careful policies on curation of the platform rather than despite them.
To go to one grocery instead of another in suburban America means driving a few more minutes with a cost of some time, a bit of gas, and a minute amount of wear and tear on a car. To change app stores, it requires spending several hundred dollars on replacement hardware, not including having to repurchase applications, accessories, etc.
That applies as much to Android, or any other phone, as it does to Apple though. It’s just the nature of the market, not some perfidious Apple plot. There’s just nothing substantive here.
> That applies as much to Android, or any other phone, as it does to Apple though.
On Android you can side-load APKs, have alternative app stores like F-Droid and even install custom operating systems. So no, that is again not comparable.
> It’s (…) not some perfidious Apple plot
Sure
> just the nature of the market
Dammit, NO. The market is a human-made artificial construct, not some natural freaking law like gravity that is inevitable and unavoidable. And given that it is human-made we can change it, and make choices on what we demand from it.
Apple is not "actively trying to prevent" people from managing their Spotify, Netflix et al subscriptions outside of their respective iOS apps, what are you talking about?
The app literally can't send you to the Web page so you can sign up there. It has to say something vague for Apple to approve it for publishing. Here's an example from Kobo [1]. They apparently can't even tell you the domain name.
its about payment not app store lock in. there is nothing wrong with paying by browser and not via the appstore besides convenience. your car does come with a 'buy new tires' button but you can still go to the store and pay with cash.
But just like my TV and my desktop computer, I've paid for my phone with cash. Its mine. Just like my PC, I don't owe Apple Computers any extra money in exchange for the privilege to install apps like spotify on my device. The benefit of having access to the app store is already factored into the (quite high) price I paid for my phone.
And if you can find a way to defeat it's security, you are free to do so. However being incredibly locked down and secure is one the the product's features. It's up to you if you still want the product, but that's how it comes.
True, but a counter argument could be that Apple has created the ability of your phone to have apps installed on it. And I’m theory you could jailbreak your phone and install any app you’d want.
Sure; but I paid $1000 for my phone in part because of that capability. My phone would be worth less if I couldn't install apps like spotify. And unlike a game console, app purchases aren't used to subsidise the phones. Its pure profit for apple.
And I wouldn't have a problem with that in general, except it feels dirty to claim Apple are saints for graciously allowing apps like spotify to be sold on their platform. They're already being paid for doing so through phone sales. Leveraging the monopoly they hold over the ios app store against Spotify, one of their competitors, is exactly what antitrust legislation is designed to prevent.
It's either Android or iOS really. I'd love for a decent alternative to exist but if you don't want Google tracking everything you do, Apple is the only option.
The thing is there have been loads of other alternatives over the years. Blackberry, WebOS, Windows Mobile, Tizen. Actual customers said no, these are what they want.
A lot of them faced what I would argue anti-competitive behaviour to prevent their growth.
For example, Google banning their apps on Windows Mobile and Amazon Firestore. Google blocking Windows Phone users from accessing maps/mail via a user-agent check. That and Google actively blocking Microsoft developing a native Youtube app.
Is it any surprise that customers were unsatisfied?
Apple and Google's duopoly is natural, no question about it. That doesn't mean we should ignore how they use it.
Google is rightfully scolded for requiring that users sign away their information and following their every move (often using dark patterns).
Apple should be put on hot coals too for how they are abusing their position. Spotify is an excellent illustration because Apple is both the platform and a competitor. I don't understand why an Apple consumer would support their anticompetitive stance.
As soon as you install some apps, your iPhone is tracking you as well. The recent stories about FourSquare have made me realize that things are much worse than I previously thought.
Apple has ~15% market share (fluctuating) so it's not really a monopoly situation. Google will give you access to the exact same Spotify service.
Whether what Apple is doing is legal or not I guess the courts will decide. But it's certainly factually incorrect to imply that you're not free to buy from anywhere else.
EDIT: comments have made clear that Windows had a monopoly on the personal computer space, whereas Apple doesn't have a monopoly on the smartphone or tablet space.
MS had a monopoly in the personal computer industry. Apple does not have one in the mobile industry. By this logic Mercedes has a monopoly on all Mercedes cars but they're clearly not one in the auto industry. If Mercedes ever decides to ban or squeeze a supplier, monopoly will not be the argument to nail them.
I'm not saying Apple is right to do this. I'm saying the monopoly on their own product is not the correct argument. Apple is not a monopoly. If they lose this case it won't be based on this.
The other posters are right about the Microsofty monopoly, but what made it particularly egregious was Microsoft's anti-competitive practices using their market dominance to actively damage or destroy competitors. This included:
* Contractually barring licensees from offering competing OSes, or selling boxes without Windows installed.
* Leveraging their OS dominance to get dominance in other markets such as linking OS licensing with licenses for other software.
* Pinching competitor's technology using their advantages as platform owner and rolling it into their own products (Stac).
>* Leveraging their OS dominance to get dominance in other markets such as linking OS licensing with licenses for other software.
Such as leveraging their preferred status to get dominance for Apple Music (by being able to charge less since they aren't subject to a 30% Apple Store 'fee')?
Although I don't disagree, the difference was that Microsoft had a monopoly on computing. Not just on PC but take computing as a whole and microsoft was hugely dominant. From a legal standpoint there is a huge difference.
Desktop computing -- in the 90s in the server area there was more competition, primarily from Netware.
It wasn't until the end of the 90s when macs started making an impression on peoples desktops, with the imac, but oddly enough if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operati... is to be believed, windows still has a 95% share of the desktop/laptop market.
I believe it because Windows comes on all kinds of devices and supports all kinds of hardware mixes and SKUs. It effectively encompasses the entire price range in a way that Apple doesn't care to.
That’s also why high street stores are now struggling while consumers are buying direct from the source or online where margins are tighter.
However I’m not suggesting that local stores are in the wrong either but it does illustrate how consumers have choice there is no such competition inside Apples walled garden. And that is the real crux of why their margins are high: it’s because developers and iPhone owners are locked into the App Store
The obvious counteragument here is that people don’t have to buy iPhones - and that is true. However people do and they still expect their app prices to be low, so developers are the ones who ultimately lose out as they either have to support Apple or be left out entirely and they’re the ones who then have to lower their prices to compete.
It’s also worth noting that the physical store, in your example, would have greater overheads than an App Store
of equivalent size so Apples markup shouldn’t include the same operational cost.
> There is massive competition to the garden itself.
I did already acknowledge that and pointing out why it doesn't work in practice.
In a normal high street setting manufacturers and distributors set their prices and the shops then add their mark up on time. If the prices are too high then consumers will shop in another local store. Which means those stores either have to negotiate a lower selling price or reduce their own margins (or offer an alternative incentive to shop there in spite of the high prices - like free coffee)
With iOS consumers don't have the option of going to another App Store, which then flips the order of control. It means Apple can dictate their markup and app developers are then forced to lower their own margins if they want to appear attractive to other shoppers.
> With iOS consumers don't have the option of going to another App Store
Correct, it's certainly unfair competition but what I'm saying is that it's still not a monopoly, not that it's "fair". When you paid for the iPhone you also paid for the services bundle that you bought as a package. Now if Apple controlled 90+% of the market this would fall under antitrust laws (MS+IE situation all over again). But they only control 15%. Users have the option of going for the the same/equivalent service provided by other vastly more popular phones and their app store(s). So every link in the chain has a perfectly good equivalent.
And even Spotify has a choice. They can shaft Apple and become Android only, since Android has 85% of the market. The reason they're not doing it right now I assume is because they would also shaft themselves, the AppStore might bring a very big chunk of their revenue (historically iOS users are bigger spenders).
Practical example of single supplier without an actual monopoly: If you buy a GM car you're left with one option for a subscription telematics service: OnStar. You can't get Lexus Link for example. I don't think it ever occurred to anyone to call this a monopoly.
> it's certainly unfair competition but still not a monopoly
I agree - which is why I specifically did NOT call it a monopoly.
> When you paid for the iPhone you also paid for the services bundle that you bought as a package....
You're still missing my point:
> And even Spotify has a choice. They can shaft Apple and become Android only, since Android has 85% of the market. The reason they're not doing it right now I assume is because they would also shaft themselves, the AppStore might bring a very big chunk of their revenue (historically iOS users are bigger spenders).
EXACTLY. Thus Spotify effectively doesn't have a choice. It's pay Apples tax or don't have support at all.
This is compounded when you factor in that the in-app sales that Apple wants to take a cut from for businesses like Spotify are sales that Apple's had no stake in. Since you like car metaphors: it's like a taxi driver buying a car and the the dealer expecting to take a cut from all the taxi fairs even though the dealer's involvement ended the moment the car rolled off their forecourt.
> I don't think it ever occurred to anyone to call this a monopoly.
Again, I never called the App Store a monopoly. Others might have but I deliberately didn't because I'm already aware that it legally is not a monopoly. However that doesn't mean they don't still have total control over app sales on their own platform - legal terms aside.
I'm not sure I follow this. When I say choice for Spotify I mean Apple or Google. The industry still allows them to get the same service from the other 85% of the market. I interpret that as "choice", having options. When I go to Malls'R'Us to rent a storefront I only have them as a choice. But I can go to another mall without anyone claiming foul about competition.
Having no choice is when you want internet but there's only one provider. Rejecting that provider doesn't mean you get different internet, or worse. You get none.
And to pick up on the mall analogy above, some storefronts cost more than others especially if they bring in more revenue for the store. And the owner of the mall also has full control over this. Is this not an equivalent situation?
I know I now sound unsympathetic to Spotify's situation but after reading (and later validating) some of the claims Apple is making in this article I can't help but feel like Spotify kind of cheated when they published their call for action by leaving some important stuff out. I had my pitchfork out only to realize the truth is a little more nuanced.
> I'm not sure I follow this. When I say choice for Spotify I mean Apple or Google. The industry still allows them to get the same service from the other 85% of the market. I interpret that as "choice", having options.
> Having no choice is when you want internet but there's only one provider. because rejecting that provider doesn't mean you get different internet, or worse. You get none.
But ignoring Apple's App Store does mean they then get no service for "iDevices" (not just the iPhone).
So their choice on iOS is pay the tax or don't have a presence. This is complicated by the fact that they would then lose customers who want a music streaming on multiple platforms including iOS. So Spotify's choice is really just an illusion.
> But isn't this what you'd expect when renting a storefront in a mall?
Indeed it is. You usually get a little more choice because you can have different landlords in a given high street (albeit you did specifically say "mall" where that choice wouldn't exist) but even in those cases shop owners are regularly complaining that increases in rent are pushing them out of business. and in fact the UK has seen a lot of independent stores go out of business because of exactly that.
> So their choice on iOS is pay the tax or don't have a presence
If I want my music in the Spotify catalog who decides what's my cut and what's Spotify's cut of the money my music is generating? They have 100% control there so if I want to list my music there what are my choices? Pay up or not have a presence.
Apple's choice is to give them access to millions of customers with big pockets (statistically), maintain the whole infrastructure for this, not get anything because the app is "free" but actually not even be allowed to drop them? What kind of choice is that? Should an app even be called "free" if it offers nothing without paying? Isn't that like asking for tax exemptions for a nonprofit organization that makes a profit?
Would it be OK if Apple changed the rules so apps had to offer full functionality without further paid unlocks or simply charge for the app as a service in the App Store at whatever monthly price the developer chooses?
The fact that Spotify lied or misled about these details that are pretty obscure to most people (including me until I specifically read about them) kind of disqualifies them from playing victim in my perspective. They want all the benefits with none of the strings.
> If I want my music in the Spotify catalog who decides what's my cut and what's Spotify's cut of the money my music is generating? They have 100% control there so if I want to list my music there what are my choices? Pay up or not have a presence.
Indeed. This same argument has been ranging on for years about music streaming services and ebooks via Amazon too. So it's not just Apple who get put under the spotlight.
> Apple's choice is to give them access to millions of customers with big pockets (statistically), maintain the whole infrastructure for this, not get anything because the app is "free" but actually not even be allowed to drop them? What kind of choice is that? Should an app even be called "free" if it offers nothing without paying? Isn't that like asking for tax exemptions for a nonprofit organization that makes a profit?
I think that's a little disingenuous. Apple don't chose to let app developers on board - Apple do it because their platform depends on it. Smart devices live and die depending on the developers that support it.
I also agree there is an infrastructure cost but as I said in an earlier post, it's not equivalent to the infrastructure costs of bricks and mortar despite Apple retaining the same kind of mark up. This is where people get narked off. But as I said elsewhere, I also accept Apple has the right to charge whatever they think they can get away with. I mean that's just basic business.
Your point about free apps is an interesting one however if we're honest, Apple do still make money even from free apps. Developers have to pay a small fortune to get their apps included in the App Store - from MacBook sales (if they weren't already Mac users), developer licences and app submissions. I think (but please correct me if I'm wrong here) Apple also have their own ad network for iOS as well? So they would obviously get a cut of that too. In any case I'm not trying to disagree with you here - more just say that Apple are hardly making a loss on free apps even without taking into account in-app sales.
> Would it be OK if Apple changed the rules so apps had to offer full functionality without further paid unlocks or simply charge for the app as a service in the App Store at whatever monthly price the developer chooses?
In fairness Amazon's app store states something like full functionality. I can't remember the specifics but they push back on apps that are in-app orientated in a scammy way while still allowing developers to be contributed for their work. It's a system which works pretty well - at least from an end user perspective. In fact that was one of the biggest things I missed when I "upgraded" my son's Kindle to a regular Google Play-powered Android tablet.
> The fact that Spotify lied or misled about these details that are pretty obscure to most people (including me until I specifically read about them) kind of disqualifies them from playing victim in my perspective. They want all the benefits with none of the strings.
I don't think Spotify has mislead anyone any more than Apple are misleading people. As you said, they all have an agenda - but that's just the nature of business. The question is really who's controlling the deck and are they doing so unfairly. The answer to the former is quite clearly Apple - but the jury is still out on the latter.
It's not really. Crying wolf is a bit hypocritical seeing how both engage in the exact same practices but only one is coming up with the sob story.
> I don't think Spotify has mislead anyone any more than Apple are misleading people
They came in the court of public opinion asking for fair treatment while misleading and giving half the story in their very loud complaint. They lost their moral high ground. Even worse since they're a company doing the exact same thing to artists. My point is, when you're in the same pigsty keep a low profile ;).
Your argument is weird. You acknowledge both are up to the same tricks yet it’s ok for one party and not the other because the first party annoyed you with a press release?
I agree it’s hard to argue who’s right and wrong but your opinion seems to be based purely on a knee jerk emotional reaction - which isn’t a compelling stance to take.
No, I'm saying that what Apple is doing to Spotify is exactly what Spotify is doing to their artists, and it's business as usual for both. It may be immoral but I don't see it as illegal (a court may very well see it differently). After putting Spotify's "call for justice" in context it lost all credibility in my eyes. It's like a robber complaining they've been robbed.
And it's not a kneejerk reaction. I plan on using both Apple and Spotify in the future. But anything Spotify want to get they should also give. Doe it look like they are to you?
I'd take Apples comments about the way Spotify treats artists with a huge pinch of salt. Spotify can only work with the labels and they're the ones who pay the artists. Often for a pittance, yes, but that's outside of Spotify's control. In fact labels are the ones who have been asking for higher mark ups in distribution while paying less to the artists and it's because of this we've seen so many music streaming services go under. Despite what Apple say, it's not that lucrative a market for most streaming services.
So I really wouldn't take Apples rebuttal at face value either. It doesn't line up with what any other the other streaming services (both current nor the ones that closed shop because they simply couldn't afford the exorbitant rights being demanded) have claimed over the years, and it certainly doesn't line up with what I experienced back when I was involved in the music scene myself (which was some years ago now - but sadly it's an industry that showed no sign of adapting even then)
> So their choice on iOS is pay the tax or don't have a presence.
Not true. They can simply not offer in-app purchases. The Kindle App doesn’t pay any “tax” to Apple. Consumers have access to the Kindle App without Apple getting any “cut” of Amazon purchases even as Apple has Books.
I think this is basically what Spotify are doing at the moment but it's not really an ideal solution. Though I guess there's nothing stopping users signing up via Safari and then installing the native iOS app.
> Since you like car metaphors: it's like a taxi driver buying a car and the the dealer expecting to take a cut from all the taxi fairs even though the dealer's involvement ended the moment the car rolled off their forecourt.
I think this is an incorrect analogy. This is why Apple only charges for physical goods, not digital ones. The rationale is they distributed your product to customers you would never have had access to without them:
- they spend marketing dollars to get those customers;
- they develop and maintain a platform so you can run your business on it.
By simply publishing their app on the App Store, Spotify gets access to 15% richest customers of the smartphone market. If you’re charging customers for something they consume on that device, then I think it’s fair to pay a share.
That being said, I have no idea how this will play out in court. Intuitively, 30% the first year sounds like a lot of money for a distribution fee.
> I think this is an incorrect analogy. This is why Apple only charges for physical goods, not digital ones. The rationale is they distributed your product to customers you would never have had access to without them:
Would the app developers "never have access" to those consumers though? Because if the iPhone didn't exist then consumers would just use another handset. Just like we did before the iPhone and just like a significant amount of people do currently.
There's definitely a blurred line somewhere though. I agree to Apple having a fee for app sales though I think 30% is a bit steep but I agree Apple ultimately get to decide how much they want to charge. I agree that some apps might try to circumvent that fee by offering in app sales instead so Apple are trying to close off that particular loophole. However I don't agree that Spotify fall into that same category because their "in app sales" is actually a subscription service to a much larger product. However where do you draw the line?
> I think this is an incorrect analogy.
Obviously I wouldn't agree but I can completely understand why you'd say that given how open to interpretation analogies can be.
To be honest I hate posting them in debates because if you agree with the point then you'll agree with the analogy but if you don't agree with the point then you'll naturally find a reason the analogy doesn't fit. And given analogies aren't meant to be 100% representative, it means there's always plenty of ways to disprove it. Thus analogies are never persuasive in a debate. Worse still, sometimes you end up going down a rabbit hole of arguing analogies rather than discussing the actual point at hand.
There does seem to be a conflation of “unfair competition” and “monopoly” going on. Generally speaking of this debate, that is.
The App Store is a service rendered to its customers, the likes of Spotify. In the form of the hosting of the app, and all the backend behind that like in-app storage (iCloud). The code review and ‘security guarantee’ that Apple holds over Google and other rivals is also a cost.
IMHO this boils down to subsidy, on the part of digital services companies, publishing apps, subsidise the free and “real world” goods and services company’s that go unlevied for their participation.
It’s a bit like at carnivals, when food trucks pay to get a place, and are often expected to pay a commission on their profits too. But the charity stands, and free ‘workshops’ for kids etc. don’t pay to be their, because their providing a different service.
