> ...but altruism only works when everyone is altruistic.
Not a big fan of open source then, I take it? Or volunteerism in general?
> Perhaps changing this would be possible if there was some parallel school system that was completely private and received support from the government in addition to fees from students/parents.
Also, after-school programs. Or, getting involved in a school board.
There are numerous and ample opportunities for someone with the means and motivation, but I think the real issue here is:
> I wouldn't be anywhere near properly compensated.
I've been wrestling around lately with an ever-widening sense of dismay I have at HN; it's only a problem for me because it's the last community of sorts that I participate in. There are numerous other hobbies and interests that all have their own groups of people, but the advantage to online communities is that they're always there when you need them and not there when you don't.
Anyway, I was whining to a good friend recently about this, because I'm having some trouble adjusting to the idea of not being a member of any communities anymore, and he tried to tell me, "Fuck the money-chasers."
I fundamentally can't relate to what seems to be the majority here on certain issues. It doesn't at all make sense to me that anyone could have this thought process that goes, "Here is a problem ... and I will complain about it ... and I have the power to change it ... but I won't."
How do you think bureaucracies change? They change when enough strong-willed individuals get involved.
Are you waiting for them to change themselves? Nothing changes all by itself; every single improvement in society is brought about by someone who worked for that change.
Where do you think the funding for teachers comes from? Teachers get their funding from voters, and all voters have been students. If students don't go through school and see, really see, that there was value in their education, then they won't be motivated to vote to spend more money on it.
The silliest thing is that we're constantly surrounded by examples of altruism working. The recent "offer HN" series -- which seems to have died out now -- were triggered by just a couple of people choosing to donate their efforts. The recent popular memorial post for Luke Bucklin and family (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1861964) is another example of the impact that a little bit of altruism can have.
And then there's you. I don't think we could ever reach a point of mutual understanding on this topic, because -- and I mean this with no disrespect -- nobody can afford to pay you enough to be altruistic. It looks like more people here see your point of view than mine.
How could I expect to be able to get usable advice on my business from HN then? The odds of my finding anyone here that would understand my motivations and limitations are looking pretty slim.
There seems to be a rampant social disease right now, where "hard" problems are concerned, in which those are always somebody else's problem. A lot of talented people are happy to pour effort into building social networks and other trendy things, because there's money and prestige in that, but when it comes to problems like education, public policy, government, and community development -- those are all somebody else's problem.
That makes me a little bit concerned for the future.
Anyway, this is probably all just a colossal waste of my time and yours. I haven't got anything else to contribute to HN.
It's not just about hoarding cash. When you act so as to maximize your income, you have found society's consensus that what you are doing is the most important and valuable thing you could offer. Altruism disregards all that feedback from everyone else, in favor of doing what you think we should want most from you (even though we demonstrably don't).
> When you act so as to maximize your income, you have found society's consensus that what you are doing is the most important and valuable thing you could offer.
For a wide range of economic situations it is true. Ignoring theft and other edge cases where the system breaks down the fact that Google's founders made a ridiculous amount of money directly relates to the value they created. Do you really think they would have created more value for humanity at larges as kindergarten teachers?
There are many ways that this breaks down. In a world of finite resources Money provides a feedback loop which says "repairing and selling car X is worth it but nobody will buy car Y so it's not worth repairing." It also says becoming a Dentist has more value than a Plumber and Poor artists should find something that creates more value.
PS: Conceder that the world is not filled with identical copies of you. Individuals have different values, goals, talents, and resources. Finding the best way to utilize humanity and its resources is a ridiculously complex problem, but the act of buying / biding on what you want communicates your desires. It also bribes people into doing things that they don't want to do because they can then get other people to do things that they want.
I made a number of points in my diatribe, and the only one that was responded to was the implication that some people are more concerned about hoarding cash. Among my first points was an example of the value of volunteerism that many on HN should find relevant.
Frankly, I find the notion that money is the only indicator of social value not only despicable, but fundamentally wrong in the context of economics. I also think that there are so many utterly obvious counter-examples in so many industries and in so many areas of the world that anyone who still holds this view could not possibly be convinced otherwise. So, I don't see any point in continuing this conversation.
Not a big fan of open source then, I take it? Or volunteerism in general?
> Perhaps changing this would be possible if there was some parallel school system that was completely private and received support from the government in addition to fees from students/parents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school
Also, after-school programs. Or, getting involved in a school board.
There are numerous and ample opportunities for someone with the means and motivation, but I think the real issue here is:
> I wouldn't be anywhere near properly compensated.
I've been wrestling around lately with an ever-widening sense of dismay I have at HN; it's only a problem for me because it's the last community of sorts that I participate in. There are numerous other hobbies and interests that all have their own groups of people, but the advantage to online communities is that they're always there when you need them and not there when you don't.
Anyway, I was whining to a good friend recently about this, because I'm having some trouble adjusting to the idea of not being a member of any communities anymore, and he tried to tell me, "Fuck the money-chasers."
I fundamentally can't relate to what seems to be the majority here on certain issues. It doesn't at all make sense to me that anyone could have this thought process that goes, "Here is a problem ... and I will complain about it ... and I have the power to change it ... but I won't."
How do you think bureaucracies change? They change when enough strong-willed individuals get involved.
Are you waiting for them to change themselves? Nothing changes all by itself; every single improvement in society is brought about by someone who worked for that change.
Where do you think the funding for teachers comes from? Teachers get their funding from voters, and all voters have been students. If students don't go through school and see, really see, that there was value in their education, then they won't be motivated to vote to spend more money on it.
The silliest thing is that we're constantly surrounded by examples of altruism working. The recent "offer HN" series -- which seems to have died out now -- were triggered by just a couple of people choosing to donate their efforts. The recent popular memorial post for Luke Bucklin and family (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1861964) is another example of the impact that a little bit of altruism can have.
And then there's you. I don't think we could ever reach a point of mutual understanding on this topic, because -- and I mean this with no disrespect -- nobody can afford to pay you enough to be altruistic. It looks like more people here see your point of view than mine.
How could I expect to be able to get usable advice on my business from HN then? The odds of my finding anyone here that would understand my motivations and limitations are looking pretty slim.
There seems to be a rampant social disease right now, where "hard" problems are concerned, in which those are always somebody else's problem. A lot of talented people are happy to pour effort into building social networks and other trendy things, because there's money and prestige in that, but when it comes to problems like education, public policy, government, and community development -- those are all somebody else's problem.
That makes me a little bit concerned for the future.
Anyway, this is probably all just a colossal waste of my time and yours. I haven't got anything else to contribute to HN.