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The question is - is reform even possible in organizations like these that have repeatedly broken the law with impunity? Is oversight possible at all when those who are supposed to have the power of oversight are unable to do so because these organizations are actively and intentionally hiding what they are doing?

When what they've done, effectively, is surveil everyone including the very people who are supposed to be able to exercise oversight and enact reforms how can oversight succeed?

I for one think the corruption is simply too deep to root out while keeping these orgs intact. They need to be torn down and rebuilt with clear missions consistent with our constitution (in the us), strict boundaries, and oversight. Reform is insurmountable when they still hold this wealth of illegally gathered surveillance data and retain their existing command structure.

The data must be destroyed. These orgs must be broken up and rebuilt so they are fit for purpose. Criminal, not overzealous is the word for what they've done. That in no way makes every person working there a criminal and I don't think demonizing the rank and file is productive or appropriate but we cannot keep watering down the severity of the problem for the sake of their feelings either.



The data must be destroyed

History shows that the only way this is likely to happen is when the revolutionaries storm the building, such as the collapse of East Germany and the Stasi, or the Libyan security files blowing around in the street after the airstrikes.


You aren't wrong. Frankly I'm not sure anything I said is reasonably possible or how to make it happen.


Anything of interest was long moved to be used later. Don't kid yourself. Often times to control the so called revolutionaries.


> the data must be destroyed

A single 1To hdd may contain 10Ko of information on every UK citizen. So while we clean, we'd better check every single pocket of every employee...


Indeed. Complete destruction of the data is probably impossible. This is exactly why this kind of vacuum everything collection is so dangerous. There's no data access protection in the world bullet proof enough to justify the risk of storing it.


Thinking about it, at least with key escrow the private keys can be stored in HSMs.


It needs to be viewed as akin to nuclear waste




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