I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.

https://youtu.be/5M_hmwBBPnc

Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.

(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)

For instance, our home HVAC shipped with blatant firmware bugs that eat blower fans, lock up compressors, etc, but take a few years to do it and access to the hidden service menu to diagnose.

Eventually, I broke down and put it online to get the firmware update (after a $500-1000 fix "in warranty").

(It's a Bryant.)

However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).

In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.

Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.

There are at least a dozen combos I have never used.

It required a damn proprietary phone app, which I assume was bouncing commands through the internet.

Your best option is to purchase your own cable modem/router and quit renting that garbage hardware from Comcast.

Or kick them to the curb and go cableless using Verizon with a router that's worth paying for.

They've been having connection hiccups and blaming the old independent router/modem even though I suspect the problem is somewhere further on.

Nobody wants to admit it, but they are more home decor and geewhiz BS than practical appliance for several decades now. You'll be perfectly fine buying cheap barebones models if you are repair savvy. Choosing colors and materials like black or white and stainless steel is "boring", but only if the surrounding space is already ugly.

I've had the same no name amazon special washer and dryer for almost 15 years now. Reviews were 3/5 stars at the time. People complained about belts slipping and hinges breaking. I just fixed them with parts on ebay. They still look and run like new.

Same for anything else. I don't see the whole "oh you need firmware update to improve the product". 90% of the time it just works.

So what happens if the fridge isn't given internet access ? Or washing machine?

Dishwashers, refrigerators, even (and perhaps especially) cars.

"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.

I feel compelled to quibble with your word choice here. Not connecting appliances to the Internet remains a viable option. It is simply one that is increasingly not common or not readily available.

"less viable option as time goes on" is pretty much "remains a viable option, increasingly not common"

?

To me, "less viable" implies there some outside factor or internal failure preventing it from working. But non-internet appliances will continue to work just fine, if you can get one. I.e. it's a viable choice, just one with less and less availability.

HP fixed a remote exploit a few years back. Theoretically someone could use your local wifi printer to install a persistent backdoor on your network. In practice HP uses updates to patch leaks in their cartridge protection (the most complicated tech in the printers). And accidentally sometimes bricks printers...

You probably meant "I want no frills product because of its simplicity, not because its cheap" but when that feedback reaches a PM, they'll only hear "I will pay more to not have a camera or a mic".

I want a very good washing machine with frills, but it want it to wash well and quietly without needing to be configured from my phone over wifi.

Have you ever considered upgrading your refrigerator? Washing machine? Kettle? A router is a transparent appliance to most people.

It's sorta like checking if spare parts are available for your refrigerator or washing machine.

You need to know why you want to spend money, which implies evaluating features, needs and possibilities, virtually guaranteeing that the user learns that OS or firmware updates and OpenWRT exist and are important.

Luckily, many (but certainly not all) continental West-European ISPs allow you to lease a Fritz!Box or you can buy one in a store and hook it up [1]. Perfect router/modem for consumers (not too complicated), can be configured through a web interface, and the hardware and software is developed by a German company.

[1] Many European countries have router/modem freedom, so an ISP cannot block you if you want to hook up your own gear. E.g. quite some tech people here use their own XGS-PON fiber ONT or at least their own router + modem.

I was reluctant to recommend them by name because I know there are other good ISPs, some are cheaper, some are more expensive, some operate only in certain areas (if they do not use Openreach local loops).

Jun 08 00:23:10 zalgor kernel: [UFW BLOCK] IN=enp0s31f6 OUT= MAC=01:02:03:04:05:06:07:08:09:10:11:12:13:14 SRC=192.168.178.1 DST=224.0.0.1 LEN=36 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=1 ID=53621 DF PROTO=2 ... from my German residence right now.

Just the last one, out of gazillions. It's a proprietary protocol for finding their other proprietary stuff in the LAN for home automation, meshing (also proprietary).

It's also almost useless for more complex internal setups.

Rather logspammy if you ask me.

One doesn't have that with other, more technical options. There is also less and less need for the "DSL- (or cable-) modem part, since fibre tends to be plain old ethernet.

Also the ownership of AVM recently changed. I fully excpect ensuing enshittification.

Instead I went with a Gl.inet device with three interfaces.

I've considered it, if I can get fiber here I will definitely get one for my segment, and maybe my resell segment too.

And besides this issue, overall it works great. I recommend this to anyone who asks me about it.

More and more IP cameras can't be set up without a phone app. TP-Link's Tapo line is really bad about it. Even some Reolink cameras can't be setup on their own.

Now that high quality, affordable brands like Dahua got banned (w/o evidence), there's less pressure on the survivors to not be awful.

More evidence that this isn't about cost at all, but control. Fortunately, the good old-fashioned "dumb" ones that just have a tiny web server to serve their configuration and viewing UI still exist, seemingly at both the ultra-cheap (unbranded/random brand ones from China based on a reference design, built by companies with no desire to host anything) and ultra-expensive (Axis, Bosch, etc.) ends of the market; the middle is entirely filled with the "smart" "cloud" crap.

You are absolutely correct. However, in regards to a phone app there is likely to be 2ndary pressure from data brokers who firehose cash for any data their phone app collects.

The company doesn't have to go away, the app just has to have issues. At least with web apps, you aren't depending on the manufacturer investing in nearly continuous upgrades to work in the rapidly changing phone environment

A web UI will continue to work for decades. And app will likely not last a year without updates.

They basically are. They just license their name out now, it’s like buying a Kodak router.

(That’s actually relatively common with various tech-adjacent companies, e.g. off the top of my head both Energizer and Philips license out their brand to third parties for random crap, even though they make actual products themselves too.)

I just installed 10 Reolinks and I had to set up a phone app for two of them that didn't have an Ethernet connector. Ick.

I have one Tapo and ran their app from an android emulator. I won't buy another.

At any rate, I think as much as web vs. app, IMO companies should be forced to support their appliances for a certain time period by law (the EU has rolled out a law to require this for some device types). If it was normal for a router to work for 10 years or a washing machine for 20 years, a vendor should be forced to support it for that amount of time since the last sale.

Stop mandating apps that will eventually break or cease being supported. Give us an OOBE that can be run independent of some mobile app.

- it was more clear when buying a product that an app is required to activate/use/etc a device

- that people who rebelled against this kind of nonsense were backed up by others and respected "more power to you!"

There are lots of people out there who would happily pay fines or not get deposits back if they didn't have to do the less glamorous parts of the event. You have to take something away that they actually care about.

If a camp does a really bad job at moop cleanup, Burning Man organization talks to leads to understand what happened. Frequently what they will take away is the camp's placement in the event, or sometimes even the ability to attend the event as that camp at all.

For reference: I am one of the leads for a fairly large and famous Burning Man camp. We camp on Esplanade most years. We do exactly what you proposed: We have deposits, and the more people put into the camp before, during, and after the event, determines if we offer them a refund and an invitation to camp with us next year. One of the factors is if you help us during setup and strike.

An invitation to camp with us guarantees them a ticket at one of the cheaper tiers. We have plenty of campers that come in, pay the dues, do nothing for the camp, are generally useless during the event, and bail out leaving a huge mess.

Conversely, we have a very small (10-20%) team of highly dedicated individuals who stay past the event and pick every piece of string, fuzz, fluff, lag bolt, rebar, and debris out of the dust and take it out. These people get nearly their entire camp dues back. If they attend next year, the social capital that they've built doing so compounds into them becoming increasingly popular and famous on Playa.

If there's one thing that Burning Man has taught me, it is that very few people are motivated by financial incentive. If you really want to motivate someone, figure out what they genuinely desire. It's rarely money.

Parents started treating "x shekel fine for y minutes late" as "buy an extra y minutes for only x shekels!".

Some camp leaders spend famously x m$+ just to bring their art to the playa. They wouldn't care about some fine.

Similarly the fine would make it impossible for others to stay after.

This is one event that somehow resisted economic behavior IMO

Charge $1,000 fee per acre (eyeballing it, that seems reasonable). There are people who will clean an acre to be spotless for $500: not bad for a day of honest, actually contributing to the environment, outdoor work!

If I'm missing something and it actually costs more than I know, raise it to $2,000. If heavy trash needs to be removed also, charge that too, by weight.

And if you don't pay, you're banned.

It's worth a try if you ask me.

  - The site conditions and trends of the day changes amount of moop per year
  - Some people dump their trash on other people's campsites
  - Wind carries moop onto campsites that already cleaned
  - Complaints about "unfair" deposit revocation would cause strife in the community
  - 10k attendees make <$50k/yr but must pay full price; doubling the price is a huge burden, even if temporary
  - Everybody already cleans as much as they're willing to clean
  - Rich people will all moop if they think they can pay to be exempted.
    They don't mind being banned because the event doesn't matter to them, it's just a party
  - There aren't many people who can/will stay for weeks after the burn, even if you paid them
  - The risk of increased moop increases risk that the event becomes banned

Probably the closest example is if you ever read freakonomics introducing a late fee for parents picking up their child late from daycare increase late pickups.

https://freakonomics.com/2013/10/what-makes-people-do-what-t...

> Would it though?

Rather than immediately shoot down your idea, let's talk about logistically implementing this:

1. Cleaning/non-compliance is already fined, if it's not cleaned properly or in a timely manner. This is serious waste like blackwater spills ($500+).

2. This would impact the the self-reliance, decommodification, and leave no trace principles. Burners don't need to be expected to clean up after themselves, they can pay someone else to do it. Yes, lots of wealthy burners would do this.

3. We'd need to set up a system of accountability. Sure, we can create a new department within the org, The Waste Accountability Department. Who do we charge for the bike graveyards (https://imgur.com/a/PolJDcI)? These are bikes that get abandoned in large clusters at the end of the event. Do they get assigned to whichever camp space they end up near? Do we start to add in plenty of surveillance (human or tech-based) to see which burner left their bike? Do we add in facial or other recognition to make sure we fine the right person? 3a. Currently bike graveyards are handled by nonprofits and volunteer orgs that take those bikes, fix them, and donate them to kids in Nevada. If we continue that program, do we pay them for taking the bikes? Do we need to appraise bikes based on their value, or do some other system of cost to repair vs value? Do we just sell blocks of "1000 lbs of bike"?

4. A core element of burning man, as mentioned in 2. is "Decommodification". This would commodify cleanup, and there are loads of first and second year burners who would absolutely pay someone $500/$1000 to clean their plot. Accountability here gets hard, as the people who are willing to pay are also the people who are unlikely to verify the quality of work. There are loads of people who would prey on burners in a rush to get out, pocket the $500, and walk off. Accountability and prosecution here, again, gets hard. The decommodification principle prevents this.

5. Who would issue the fine? Burning Man is a non-profit, the fine would require legal enforcement, collections or some other method to threaten people into paying. It would also require accounting for where that money goes and how it is used. Bureau of Land Management? They already do issue fines for blackwater spills and other serious environmental hazards (see 1).

6. Currently cleanup is handled by the Department of Public Works and Playa Resto. Both are volunteer-driven. Once we start paying people to clean up, why aren't we paying the people who deploy the porto-potties, make the streets, maintain the vehicles, and operate the core infrastructure? DPW spends 3-6 months before the event preparing the site for the event.

As I hope this demonstrates, it's not as simple as just having a group of people you can pay to clean up. There's a lot of logistical challenges, not to mention a pretty big shift in the culture.

I vote we stick with making people clean up after themselves, independent of their ability to pay.

This is why I suggested an increasing deposit for repeat offenders. Leave a huge pile of trash? Next year's deposit is $100k. Do it several years in a row? $10MM deposit.

Many camps did this, and were actually turning a profit at Burning Man by taking advantage of the community of volunteers.

A few years ago the Burning Man organization put a stop to this by decreasing or eliminating camps considered to be Luxury or Plug N Play. Not just because they were antithetical to the event, but because they became famous for a slew of problems.

White Ocean is one of the more famous camps in this domain. A luxury camp that charged exorbitant fees for extremely wealthy individuals to come and party without any responsibility. They had loads of sexual assaults, dosing incidents, and campers generally being shitty people. The leads also refused to pay the hired help. This led to a now-infamous vandalism incident.

White Ocean basically has a permanent ban on attending now.

You cannot incentivize people out there with money. You have to take something away that they actually care about.

Requiring a clean-up deposit up front will encourage people who were already inclined to clean up to do so, and encourage people disinclined to do so to leave trash behind.

The communal honor / shame culture that is in place is much more effective- people tend to care more about their reputation than they do money they've already spent.

The moop map, and community holding itself accountable, seems to be a decently functioning system.

Not to mention the administrative overhead, at the org level and at the camp level.

Frankly being a camp of 100+ people, not just taking dues but also handling this Deposit, and distributing the cost fairly?

Running a camp is enough of a pain in the ass without adding on this kind of thing.

Monetary incentive systems like what you're suggesting are just a way of enforcing culture. If culture spreads organically, why bother with the overhead of bringing money into the picture?

To be clear, neither of these things are intended to address EMI/RFI. Most consumer-grade UPSes directly pass the AC power through when not on battery, so any noise on the lines will also pass through pretty much untouched.

Surge suppressors are just MOVs (metal oxide varistors) and a circuit breaker. If the line voltage rises too high, the MOVs try to shunt the voltage. But if the EMI's peak voltage is below the MOV's trigger threshold, it will do nothing and the EMI will pass straight through.

No. DUP will happily put both copies on the same disk. You would need to use RAID1 (or RAID1c3 for a copy on all disks) if you wanted a guarantee of the metadata being on multiple disks.

...even so, without a disk failure, that probably wasn't the cause of this event.

You can end up in this state with btrfs if you start with a single device (defaults to data=single,metadata=dup), and then add additional devices without changing the data/metadata profiles. Or you can choose this config explicitly.

I really wish the btrfs-progs had a --this-config-is-bad-but-continue-anyway flag since there are so many bad configurations possible (raid5/raid6, raid0/single/dup). The rescue tools are also bad and are about as likely to make the problem worse as fix it.

But fun fact: even if an ID is on that list, if it's not one that their little scanner machines know how to read, then it's effectively not on that list. I've been hassled every single time I try to use my TWIC card at TSA, and they invariably demand to use my (non-REAL) driver's license, since their dumb scanners can manage to read that one. They often then have the gall to give me one of their "You need to have a REAL ID" pamphlets. I can't wait to see what happens next time I travel with this new fee in effect.

Not when Windows gets its grubby mitts on them. I will frequently hear the fans spin up on my Win10 laptop when it should be doing nothing, only to find the Windows Telemetry process or the Search Indexer using an entire fucking CPU core.