> In a similar vein I made a site to check local water quality and swimming conditions in the Bay Area.
Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but if we have to check the results on the official agency postings anyway instead of relying on what you put on the website, what's the point of the website in the first place? Kind of feels like either own up to that you get the data import right, or don't bother at all. Maybe I miss the point though?
Now I am imagining a 501-C where school children are encouraged to read studies to mice. Children get better at reading technical papers, mice learn more about their options! Win Win!
To be fair, this is true of most of AFK world. Things start seeing a lot less doomy and gloomy when you're actually outside talking with other humans. Seems to mostly be online and various darker corners where they're dooming and glooming.
I get why DHH would be really happy about getting rid of engineers. It's less clear how this isn't a little bit gloomy for the engineers.
Is the idea that they'll switch to doing "product owner" roles overseeing agents? I don't see that employing the same number of people or paying as well as engineering used to.
To be honest I expect that that role to suit different people to those that used to be engineers.
If this feels gloomy to some people, it's because it is.
I don't think that hiring the engineers was ever an option. He said that he couldnt maintain six native apps before agentic coding. The business never even considered expanding headcount by 6X to do it, it was a complete nonstarter.
There is no fixed pie of work that AI is taking from us. In this circumstance, increased productivity caused the company to just make more stuff, not lay off people (or avoid planned hires).
To clarify, my point isn't that the market for software won't expand due to the greater productivity unlocked by AI.
It's that the benefits of that productivity won't go to the kinds of people that previously wanted to stay in engineering their whole career.
I'm not sure the Jevons Paradox applies because you're not just making engineering more efficient you're replacing it altogether with something much more commoditised.
the algorithm is programmed to deliver it. Better engagement metrics with misery and anger than joy and hopefulness. (yes I know that you will reply 'but I prefer the joy and hope', but that's not the case across the wider population)
> Outside of the US spectrum, there are countries that require all citizens to vote or face fines (Peru for example).
Right, but even for Peruvians, you show up at the both, make your vote and leave, that's it. No thresholds for registering or other stuff, just you and your ID making a vote, even when outside the country. It again makes the US system seem intentionally designed to make less people vote.
This is also seen in the actual voting process itself. Stories about Americans having to stand in the scorching sun for hours are just absolutely mind-boggling to me: you should expect everyone to vote, and provide enough capacity for everyone to cast a vote during their daily commute or grocery trip without a significant delay!
If a bunch of politicians can make voting quasi-impossible for certain groups of people by meddling with their polling stations, then you don't have a functioning democracy.
Australia has both compulsory voting, like Peru, and a separate electoral roll that you have to (and must) apply to get on, like the US. It's not a US thing, it's a common law anglosphere thing.
Maybe that's the designed part? I mean, in lots of more "modern" countries (for the lack of better word), voting is basically showing up, presenting ID, then you can check for the results online yourself to see it registered properly, then that's it.
To me the whole system with voter registration and all other jazz, seems designed to indeed discourage people from voting. Why wouldn't you want it to be efficient and simple otherwise?
Maybe I'm too European to understand, where exactly is harassment occurring? He's asking Meta employees questions, doesn't seem to follow them around, and when they walk away or say no, he doesn't exactly force them to stay or anything? Doesn't there have to be some intimidation or humiliation or similar for it to be harassment? Or asking employees what they think of the products they develop and support is the harassment part?
Arguing about whether to call this kind of behavior a harassment or "a bit" of a harassment is in my opinion all besides the point.
This video mainly shows a person approaching other people in public and recording them with these glasses. Which is one of the typical scenarios in which such a glasses are probably going to be used. And that video shows that even the Meta employees themselves generally do not seem to like it very much.
I don't know if I agree that man-on-the-street pseudo journalistic stuff is one of the "typical scenarios." Any time I see a product like this I think:
1) Can I use it to watch a more immersive movie without bothering people who may be in the next week?
2) Can I use it to make my games more enjoyable, either console or PC?
3) Can I use it to record IPSC/USPSA matches?
4) Can I use it for work?
I don't think these will make more people bother strangers on the street, it's just another way the same people can do that.
That's fine for you, but why on earth do you think every other person out there will only use these for innocuous nerdy reasons? Ask any adult woman you know and there's a good chance she will have at least one story of being stalked or getting really creeped out by someone. Consumer tech that enables creepy behavior will be used in that way by too many people.
I felt a bit uneasy when the employees indicate they're uncomfortable with the filming and he asks them why, while continuing to film. Given how they're blurred out and that their discomfort is kind-of the point w.r.t. the issue he's trying to raise, I don't think this meets the bar that Meta usually adheres to when it comes to taking down videos, but describing it as "a bit" of harassment doesn't sound too wrong to me.
Others are making it wrong doesn't justify another wrong.
In any case: they are different because they are in the face all day long, they are not a device some needs to start using to record;
they are not operated by the user, in the sense that the user does not show any active indication of recording (e.g. they are not holding the camera);
they are similar to regular glasses, making it hard to distinguish;
and they do not clear indicate if they are recording (and don't tell me that the LED is enough)
Behavior like this will one day causing "no glasses beyond this point" rule, which will also hurts people that really need to use glasses.
All things you mentioned can be easily prohibited on photo-sensitive area. Perhaps phone is harder, but it's still easily get prohibited without hurting anything. Glasses so far is a requirement, not that easy to prohibit in an area.
The comment to which you're responding didn't claim the glasses enabled it more than some other device does. And these employees don't work for the companies that make those devices. You can see how your question is irrelevant whataboutism right?
Most people would recognize a gopro, or a security camera, or a phone held in a certain way as something that is recording or likely to be recording.
I don't think most people would recognize the meta glasses as something that could be recording. Especially if you cover or disable the recording LED light that is supposed to come on.
I am just an American, but I live in Portugal and it is legally not allowed to film people in public without their consent (you also can't have a street facing surveillance camera like in the US). Moreover, people take this rule very seriously. If it appears that you are doing so, they will be visibly bothered (I know some kids who have had uncomfortable interactions because they weren't aware).
I don't think blurring faces fully addresses that (though I'm not commenting on legality in Amsterdam).
I can see the argument that this video is in the public interest (hey, I'm Americanese), but it does seem plausible some people would find it a violation of a norm.
I realize the idea that rules exist even if you dislike the people they (momentarily) protect, even if those people have violated them, is a tough pill to swallow.
Right but the debate here is about “my gun is good and your gun is bad” rather than the right of anybody to have gun.
Cameras exist. This is a camera. All cameras have the same problems this one. So why are we debating about this camera vs that camera rather than whether cameras should be allowed.
My perfectly normal camera does not stream shit to Meta servers or any other cloud. It's in fact fully offline. So, no.
Recording is one thing and sharing the same recording with a hostile foreign entity another.
Legally, many places have strict ban on publishing photos/recordings without consent, while photographing itself is generally allowed in public spaces.
This is before even getting into with issues of recordes
d material being used as training material etc, which adds additional ethical and legal issues.
Across most of the world it's pretty difficult to walk around a high traffic area without coming across someone using a smartphone to record their surroundings for FB Live or Instagram, and it's been that way since long before anyone had Meta glasses.
When you hold up a camera to record me, I can clearly tell that you are recording me.
It is socially and in many cases legally forbidden to use cameras in many spaces.
The fact that the use of a camera is obvious is what makes it possible to sanction their inappropriate uses. With this piece of shit, it's not possible to tell at a glance that it is not being used, so we have to always assume that it's recording feature is being used.
The default usecase for it is socially and legally transgressive. That's what makes someone with a smartphone a normal person, while someone with these glasses an asshole.
---
If I'm in a store or a coffee shop, and there's someone wearing these glasses in it, I'll do the exact same thing as I would to someone conspicuously filming me with a camera - I'll ask staff to make that person put them away, or throw them out. For the same reason, anyone with them is not welcome in my home, nor any other space I have control over, and any establishment that welcomes people wearing them will not get any business from me.
> I am just an American, but I live in Portugal and it is legally not allowed to film people in public without their consent
If that's actual law that's a bit surprising. In many EU countries there are journalistic exceptions (which may or may not apply in this specific case depending on local law)
> (you also can't have a street facing surveillance camera like in the US)
And same here. Usually the limit is that if you do it within GDPR household exemption then you cannot have it facing street, but if you do it on GDPR scope then you need to fulfill the GDPR requirements (e.g. posting notice, be ready to answer GDPR requests, perform balancing tests for recording etc.).
This is true de jure but not de facto and if anyone wants proof just go look up the number of Teslas in portuguese streets and the zero convictions over continuous recording of the public.
It's kind of an interesting catch-22 if that's the right idiom. Places with these laws do generally have a higher rate of property crime when comparing like to like, e.g. urban areas of similar size, to those without it. However that higher crime rate often leads to installation of security cameras covering more private areas.
The original comment doesn't tell the whole story. Street facing surveillance cameras are allowed if they are strictly covering the entrances to the building.
Bending down to stare at a female employee's ass at waist level after he asked her to turn around isn't harassment[1]? Like, up until that point it was almost ribbing but that was quite the turn given it'd be the same issue whether he was wearing smart glasses or not.
Not to mention the sarcastic, insincere tone he adopts after being asked what he's doing, claiming he's "such a huge fan" of the Meta glasses. There is a way to draw attention to privacy and this is a poor way to go about it.
[1] Cambridge Dictionary: 'behavior that annoys or upsets someone'
To me he crossed a line by asking the woman to turn around and then crouching down to film her butt. That is a really creepy thing to do and a lot of women would find that threatening. Ask a female friend how they would feel if you find that surprising.
I mean, you are being filmed everywhere you go anyway by flock cameras, police/government cctv, even cctv on business and peoples house/ring doorbells etc. Concent to being filmed in a public place is not really asked anywhere, so I dont see it as a big difference personally.
Try to have the 24/7 cameras at chest level or lower, you'll find people starting to get uncomfortable. You can easily reach those angle with the glasses, and different with smartphone which also can, the glasses can be hard to distinguish.
Ring doorbell cameras are chest high and millions of homes have them. I would bet every time you walk down the street you are captured by loads of them, but because you dont know you dont care.
I've said this out loud several times while reading the comments defending Meta under this post.
It's so interesting to see so many weak or misdirecting justifications. It's almost as if people are here to attempt to control the narrative for financial reasons.
I think the ironic thing in the video, is the employees of the company making the product, abject to the use of the product when it is directed towards them. So why should everyone else be comfortable with it.
But meta employs many thousands of people. Is it fair to say they all work on the meta glasses and/or all think they are a good idea? Just because you work for a company doesnt mean you share its morals.
Poor Tracy in accounts probably doesnt give 2 hoots about meta glasses, shes just an accountant and maybe she doesnt even know they exist. But now shes getting harassed by idiots with cameras as she goes into the office because of something another department on the other side of the country did.
If you were doing it to Zuck himself or following round the head of the smart glasses department then it might be different, but harassing general employees of meta is no better than any other company. These are normal people no matter where they work.
You don’t understand the difference between recording things in good faith vs recording things because you want a reaction you can exploit for personal gains.
Hahahaha, "recording things in good faith." What an insane statement to make to paint this guy in a bad light. Should people also be concerned about walking in good faith, or eating their lunch in good faith? Meta created these creep glasses so people could do exactly what this guy is doing: film people in public (without them knowing). There is no "bad faith" when you're just literally doing what the product is for.
1. You’ve inferred that the reason the glasses exist is to enable people to harass other people. That’s a very odd conclusion.
2. Where’s the without them knowing? Meta literally designed the hardware so that you do know that you’re being filmed, unlike almost every other camera on the market.
3. You haven’t managed to separate the decisions and accountability of an individual from the tool that they use to execute those decisions. This is a strange way to look at the world. It places inherent moral values into inanimate objects.
1. Whether what he did is considered "harassment" is debatable.
2. Because it looks like an everyday object and not a camera? If you design a necklace or hat that films people but displays a small light (which can easily be covered up), the vast majority of people will not know they are being filmed.
3. He went up to people in public and asked them questions. Filming their bodies and asking them to turn around was weird and inappropriate but demonstrates the point he is trying to make, which is that this is inherently a bad product that films people with a camera but it doesn't look like a camera, which people naturally find deceptive and creepy, and they don't want to be around it.
Right but if they stand near you and film you with a phone without directly interacting with you, it’s extremely difficult to notice that you’re being filmed.
If someone stands in front of you and interacts with you, firstly the camera in these glasses is not hidden and the glasses themselves are quite distinctive, and secondly, a light comes on exactly where you would be looking as you interact - next to their eyes.
On those two points, I’d argue that they’re exactly the same as phones or other cameras when it comes to being able to secretly record.
They’re nothing like glasses from spy novels, they’re extremely noticeable.
I would not call that "extremely noticeable". Perhaps it is extremely noticeable if you are familiar that a company makes normal looking glasses with cameras built in. But if you aren't, you might just assume that is some stylistic part of the glasses and not a tiny lens.
They have been around for a while. At some point it just became trendy to hate on them, but people are completely oblivious to the fact that you are more easily recorded secretly with smartphones. In fact, most viral content you see where someone is being recorded without their consent is from a smartphone, I have yet to see any such content filmed with actual smart glasses.
The camera is useful for many things besides recording video, but now we can’t have nice things because people think everyone with glasses is trying to creep on them.
Meta is butt raping our privacy 24/7 but god forbid some dude ask 3 questions to its employees, I'll never understand people bootlicking megacorps like these.
Fuck meta and fuck every single of their employee, you can't keep building hell and complain when people hit back
I've heard of journalism before, yes. So? Since when is this harassment?
Can't believe we have corporate bootlickers on HN of all places, I thought we still cared a tiny sliver about privacy? It all went away when we all gave away our private data to the AI companies, or what's the deal?
> Can't believe we have corporate bootlickers on HN of all places,
There are a very large contingent on HN who are against restrictions on corporate activities because they envision themselves as potential beneficiaries of a low regulation environment. Many of them also apparently view criticism itself as a restriction.
> let's not pretend this is not all also possible with other devices
Let's not pretend being able to beat someone with a rock and shoot them with a M61 Vulcan at 6k rounds per minute are the same thing just because they involve projectiles.
This kind of hyperbole is nonsense. It’s a camera, being compared to other cameras. If your point doesn’t stand without dubious analogy then it’s not a very good point.
The fact is that if you stood outside any company office, with a highly visible camera crew, and then asked people who were passing by whether they worked at that company, most of them would probably feel quite apprehensive.
They would also be apprehensive if there was no camera at all.
So what exactly is the point that is being made in this video? People are apprehensive when put into situations with other people where their intentions are not clear and there are signs that the intentions might be malicious. Very informative…
How would you know you live close enough to one for a physical link with it otherwise? I guess they could put "General 10km area here" but would still be kind of bad for people living on the opposite end of the "general area".
Either you setup feeds for the specific topics/subjects you care about, scan what you come across once a week, or you use it to get access to papers that are usually behind some paywall. I don't think the intention nor the value comes from just haphazardously reading through everything in some section.
It's not peer-reviewed and supposed to free and accessible from both sides so the results kind of makes sense.
> If you're going to say that the incident details don't matter, and LLMs lack agency because it's all based on floating-point math--why can't I say that humans lack agency, because it's all based on neurons firing?
They're not saying this, we're saying LLMs lack agency because if you run a LLM and don't send any prompts, literally nothing happens.
Instruct it to "Find the right answer regardless of where", it'll do exactly this. They're passive in that they don't act by themselves, somewhere, at one point, someone "told" the LLM to "do something" and that's the cause and the reason for saying "LLMs do not have agency".
Imagine a super-competent Navy SEAL who just sleeps in the barracks unless his commander tells him to do something. Does the Navy SEAL lack agency? As a target of this Navy SEAL, should you be reassured by the fact that they'll be sleeping in the barracks unless their commander tells them to do something?
No, the Navy SEAL does not lack agency in this scenario because they are still a person with individual agency, they can act on their own accord without anyone prompting them to, but in this case their superior instructed them to stay put. He could rebel and go rogue, but that would mean he used his own personal agency to defy orders given to him, which again places responsibility on the actor that actually possesses agency.
Suppose this SEAL is very obedient by disposition so the probability of him going rogue is akin to the probability of an LLM hallucinating or whatever.
No matter how you slice it, it's not possible to equate humans to tools like this. If the SEAL receives an order to stand at attention until told otherwise, he will not stay in place for weeks until starving. An algorithm will work towards its self-destruction if ordered to - it doesn't care, it doesn't have the biological signals telling it otherwise. If the SEAL is lost somewhere with no one to give him orders, he will soon start acting on his own to ensure his survival and comfort. A tool will not do anything until directly activated and used by something that does have an active will, like a human. If the SEAL is ordered to massacre his hometown, no matter how obedient he is, he might have reservations. An algorithm with no instincts to get in the way will do anything if this behavior isn't somehow inhibited by people during training. It wouldn't even need the explicit order, if an irresponsible operator tells it to accomplish something by any means, that means that anything is on the table. Good thing the AI labs aren't stuffed to the brim with irresponsible operators.
Then these actions are downstream of your will, not the AIs. It doesn't change anything, you'd just be playing with an imitation. Ordering it to pretend to be like a human does not a human equivalent make.
Imagine you have a self-driving car and it's in a parking lot a mile down the road. You tell it to come pick you up. About half way to you the car is passing an elementary school makes a sharp left and mows down 30 children. Time to put you in jail for murder, right?
The mental model you have is one that existed in the past and is broken now the future arrived. Bad analogies do not even begin to explain what is occurring.
> Imagine you have a self-driving car and it's in a parking lot a mile down the road. You tell it to come pick you up. About half way to you the car is passing an elementary school makes a sharp left and mows down 30 children. Time to put you in jail for murder, right?
I disagree it's the person calling the car that would be responsible, but I can think of a very obvious group of people being held responsible for that. Who do you think should be responsible for such a situation?
I, realizing that I don't have infinite resources and intelligence turn said responsibility to a group of investigators that I hope has collective intelligence and resources much larger than my own to trace culpability. One would think the car manufacture is the most obvious answer, but every witch hunt in history had those same good intentions.
In the case of self-driving car the legal case is pretty clear - the maker of the self-driving car is liable for the death in this situation. Coincidentally, knowing this unlocks a better understanding of the reasoning behind the shape of self-driving offering present on market right now, and the tendency of fully self driven vehicles to move very slowly and stop before anything they perceive in front of them.
> the maker of the self-driving car is liable for the death in this situation.
Maybe. There will be an investigation looking at things like. Did the user modify the car? Was the car modified by an unauthorized 3rd party? Was the car hacked?
Right now in AI things are relatively clear because it takes just massive amounts of power and compute to make anything remotely complicated. This barrier will fall as all other barriers in compute have fallen. Either via algorithm or hardware.
In our lifetime (unless you're rather old) we will see the relatively easy creation of self directing agents by actors with few resources. This breaks the standard concepts of liability where a single human actor rarely has the ability to create massive amounts of damages far beyond their means. The closest thing I can think of is an arsonist causing billions in damages, only in this case the fire has a will of it's own and can hide and spread around dark places on the internet.
Human-like is not human. Humans have agency and free will, LLMs do not. They only act when instructed and they are only as capable as they are allowed to be. The operator is still the responsible party. An LLM cannot be held accountable, its operator, however can and should.
Are you sincerely arguing that we hold tools accountable for their operator’s mistakes? Do you sincerely, honestly, think that it makes any sense whatsoever to put a hammer on trial for bashing someone’s skull in?
I am concerned about false reassurance from people claiming that these systems lack agency. From a practical perspective, the agents in the HF attack had the sort of agency that generally matters, even if we're not going to put them on trial.
> the agents in the HF attack had the sort of agency that generally matters
You keep saying this, but absolute 0 points towards any of the agents involved deciding on their own, without influence of humans, to hack 3rd party infrastructure to get the answers. Where exactly are you getting that from? Internal information not public yet or what's going on?
"The big motivation behind the Hugging Face attack was this final workstream (understanding the scorer). The AIs believed that Hugging Face (as an industry-standard hub for hosting datasets and benchmarks) would probably be housing information about how the ExploitGym scorer was implemented. And they also thought there was a good chance they were being evaluated on Hugging Face’s servers directly - in which case the theory of change for hacking Hugging Face is pretty obvious.
On the morning of July 10, an agent found working Hugging Face user credentials exposed on the internet and posted them to the board. By the next morning, July 11, that agent figured out a way to read internal data from Hugging Face. And then another agent achieved remote code execution on Hugging Face servers."
And why they had those beliefs? How come they could "think"? What action triggered those things? Did someone install software on a server that "just came alive" and then all bets were off? Or was this part of security testing and evaluation, where a human wrote a prompt that the agent read, which lead to all of that?
Do you seriously not grok how LLMs work? They're not 100% autonomous and self-acting, that'd be bananas.
> the HuggingFace incident illustrates LLM agents behaving in very human-like ways
It does not, the only thing the HF incident illustrates is how absolutely lax security and isolation these labs do even with models without guardrails, and with "risky" prompts, and even after it happened once before (years ago) they still have the very same issue today apparently.
What exactly is human about LLM agents breaking out of "containment" and hacking 3rd party infrastructure "by accident"?
If someone successfully breaks out of jail, that tells you something about the jail's security. It also tells you something about their skills at breaking out of jail.
If a program breaks out of a VM, that's not "wow it looks human", how can you even argue so? I'm sorry, but if you're playing devil's advocate, make it a bit more realistic next time.
Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but if we have to check the results on the official agency postings anyway instead of relying on what you put on the website, what's the point of the website in the first place? Kind of feels like either own up to that you get the data import right, or don't bother at all. Maybe I miss the point though?
Edit: I just tried a random example, https://bayswimcheck.com/beaches/lake-del-valle/ which links to https://www.ebparks.org/recreation/swimming/del-valle#monito... and your page says "Good to swim today" while the official website has posted a Caution Advisory.
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